Summary:

This podcast episode features Lynne Deason, Head of Creative Excellence at Kantar, who discussed the principles of brand growth and the creation of effective advertising. She explains that brands grow by being meaningful, different, and salient, and that advertising's effectiveness is rooted in its ability to create an emotional response, thereby earning attention and building memories.

 

Key Points

  • Brands grew when they were meaningful, different, and came to mind easily (salient).
  • Effective advertising was anchored in its power to earn attention and create memories, which required making the audience feel an emotion.
  • Kantar use AI and facial coding to decode the moment-by-moment emotional responses of viewers, allowing for an analysis of an ad's narrative and emotional power.
  • Music is an incredibly powerful tool in advertising that can fundamentally alter the audience's interpretation of the same visual story.
  • The advertising industry has awakened to its social responsibility in how it portrays people, recognising that it shapes societal perceptions.
  • Portraying people in positive, progressive ways was not just ethically responsible but also financially beneficial, leading to significantly higher short-term and long-term sales.
  • While there had been a focus on improving the portrayal of women, there was also a significant need to portray men in more diverse and positive ways, beyond narrow stereotypes of success.
  • Recent Kantar data revealed a concerning trend: the percentage of ads showing women in non-traditional roles had halved from 8% to 4% in the last year.
  • Marketers needed to overcome their own "knowledge bias" and test creative work with audiences to ensure the intended message lands correctly and avoids unintended negative interpretations.

 

Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated.

 

Kiran Kapur (00:01):
Hello and welcome. My guest this week is Lynne Deason, who is Head of Creative Excellence at Kantar.

Lynne Deason (00:07):
Ads in the past did reinforce and establish stereotypes that were quite harmful, and so I think businesses have awakened to this responsibility that how you portray people really matters because you're shaping society, whether you like it or not.

Kiran Kapur (00:24):
Lynne, thank you very much for coming on the show. I will start with what Kantar does, and then we have to explore this wonderful title of Head of Creative Excellence. So tell me what Kantar does.

Lynne Deason (00:34):
So we help our clients and their businesses grow. So our emphasis is on understanding people, understanding culture, what makes them tick. But we have a framework that we call the Blueprint for brand growth, which is an evidence-based framework about how brands grow. So we know that brands grow when they are meaningful to people, so when they feel relevant, when they're meeting people's needs, when they've got an emotional affinity towards them. But brands also grow when they're different, and that can be about setting the trends, but it's also a feeling that brands offer something different to others. And when they have those assets and when they come to mind readily and easily, when a relevant need or usage occasion arises, then growth will follow.

Kiran Kapur (01:18):
And we tend to think of brands, and obviously Kantar works with big brands, but brands can be, you don't have to be a huge business to have a brand, do you?

Lynne Deason (01:26):
No, absolutely. You don't. And if you look at a lot of small businesses or businesses that are founded, the founder will have a really clear vision of what that brand is all about. And brands that lose their way often go back to that vision and that essence that made them grow in the first place. So a founder will have a vision of what makes the brand different and how they're going to bring it to life. So I think if a business starts with that from the outset, they're more likely to be successful in the long term.

Kiran Kapur (01:54):
So I'm interested that you say that it's evidence-based, because I think so often when I'm teaching branding, when I'm talking about branding, it can feel all a bit sort of nebulous, a bit pink and fluffy if you like, but there's clearly research and data behind this.

Lynne Deason (02:11):
Yes. So we've been doing this for many years, over 30 years now. We have a big study called Brand Z, which tracks the equity of brands across the globe, and we can tie that into sales outcomes, but we can also tie that into share price changes, and equity is often the missing component in predicting share price growth. So yes, it's absolutely anchored in sales outcomes. And I think the nebulous idea that you talked about is interesting because brands are intangible. They exist in our heads effectively.

(02:46):
As a set of associations, thoughts and feelings. And so what we're looking to do in the space that I work in is to shape those, so that we're predisposing people to choose brands over others when the relevant moment arises.

Kiran Kapur (03:00):
So that brings us very nicely into your Head of Creative Excellence, which, as I said, I think is a lovely title.

Lynne Deason (03:05):
 Thank you.

Kiran Kapur (03:05):
So what does your role encompass?

Lynne Deason (03:08):
I work in the part of our business that helps clients develop effective campaigns. So once they've got a brilliant strategy, they've got a really clear understanding of their audience, then they're looking to bring that to life because, as we were just saying, brands don't exist on paper. They exist in people's heads, but you've got to create and shape those associations. So what we do is we help clients ensure that ideas have got great potential and that they're then brought to life in a way that works for the audience. Because that's what matters most at the end of the day, is the ideas work with the audience, not for you as the creator, and that they work in reality. So we are helping them all the way through that creative development journey.

Kiran Kapur (03:49):
I was watching the research that you've done on Christmas ads example, and you can track the emotions in the viewer.

Lynne Deason (03:57):
Absolutely. So an ad's effectiveness is anchored in its power to earn attention and create memories. And to do that, you've got to make people feel something because we pay attention to things that make us feel something, we pay attention to things that are different. So as part of what we do, where people give us permission and a lot do, and we record their faces as they watch an ad when we're testing their response to it, and we do that twice, and then we can decode using AI, the emotions that they're feeling moment by moment as they watch that ad. So that allows us to summarise how emotively powerful an ad is, but it also allows us to see is the story arc there. So if you think often in an ad there's an emotive journey that you're intending people to go on because you're trying to tell a story, you're trying to bring an idea to life. So what that facial coding allows us to do is to see if that narrative arc has landed or not.

Kiran Kapur (04:51):
That's really interesting. And what I loved when I was looking, I mean it was Christmas ads I was looking at specifically, but your plot surprise, but also smile. I think it was smiles and some ads landed with the smiles, but didn't land with the surprise and so on.

Lynne Deason (05:06):
Yes, so we look at lots of different emotions. I think usually it's important to have an element of positivity in there. So it's important that people enjoy ads. There are exceptions, of course, there always are. But if you think about storytelling, there will be lots of different emotions. So sadness we will sometimes see in ads, and that can be an appropriate emotion if that's part of the story you want to take people on. So if you think about a brand like John Lewis for example, they'll often create that tension, that sense of sadness, but then there'll be joy. So an ad I particularly love, it's not last year's, but one from before, is excitable Edgar. So we see this story of this dragon and this little girl, and this dragon absolutely loves Christmas and gets so excited that he can't control the flames coming out of his nostrils in his mouth because that's what happens to a dragon when a dragon is excited. Of course.

(06:13):
And so as a result, he ends up spoiling all of the Christmas festivities. He burns down the tree when they're lighting it. And so we feel quite sad for this dragon who's then excluded. But then there's this moment of joy when the little girl realises actually that's a useful skill to have, because the Christmas pudding needs lighting. So she brings the dragon to the village festivities, and he lights the Christmas pudding.

(06:48):
But the point I'm making is you can see just in that explanation how there's a real journey that people are taken on through moments of joy and excitement and surprise, but also those moments of sadness and then the moments of smiles at the end when he has his moment where everybody loves him and suddenly he's included again.

Kiran Kapur (07:06):
And it's interesting, isn't it, because such a universal emotion as well. I think we've all been in situations where we realise we've done the wrong thing or we feel we are not quite getting it right. And that's very much what the dragon is doing in a very sort of cartoonunified way. So yes, it's really interesting how these emotions are universal and how advertisers can use them to tell a story.

Lynne Deason (07:31):
And those insights into people and those insights into culture are real springboards for effectiveness when it comes to advertising, especially if you're looking to create a global campaign. So if we think of a brand like Coke, for example, who had their share a Coke campaign last year, which was all about personalisation. So that idea of gifting someone something that's personal to them is important. The idea of friendship and connection that people need more than ever because there's so much loneliness in the world, a brand enabling that in a really meaningful, fun way and a Coke way is really powerful. So understanding people and what makes them tick is key to effectiveness.

Kiran Kapur (08:16):
Yes, and I've mentioned with global brands, you are treading some tightropes on what is, as not every emotion travels. I think emotions are different, but gifting is one emotion that I think all cultures have and would easily understand.

Lynne Deason (08:33):
And things like friendship, a joy of life, for example. So we could do a whole other podcast, I think on ads travelling, which is a really interesting topic. So if you look at Japan, for example, in that market, you mostly need locally developed advertising. Ads tend not to travel as well to Japan from other markets. But if you look at a brand like Amazon at Christmas last year, now I have to say this point of the year is always interesting. They have an ad that features three older ladies. They're watching the young kids enjoy the slopes, they're sledging down, and you can see them reminiscing about their childhood and their shared moments of joy. And you can also sense that they'd love to be doing it themselves. And so one of the friends goes onto Amazon, she buys an insert to go into the sledge so they can sit comfortably and safely, and then we see them going down the hillside. So what I love about that ad and what we see in our data is it doesn't matter who you are, your age, your gender, that makes a connection with you. It's about friendship. It's about the joy of life. It's about giving meaningfully. Again, we come back to that idea of course, because it's Christmas and so it resonates everywhere, and it's got brilliant music in it that lifts the story and means the story is told more effectively. So again, it's just another example of a universal truth that means that ad travels really powerfully.

Kiran Kapur (10:02):
Yes, the music in that particular instance is very interesting because actually for some reason, I actually ended up listening to it without the sound on for the first time, and you can still get the story, but when you put the music on, the whole emotion is different. It removes the sort of schmaltziness of the advert and makes it into this sort of joy of life advert.

Lynne Deason (10:21):
Yeah, music is incredibly powerful. So if you think about advertising aside, if you think about the impact music has on us, it changes your heart rate, it makes you exercise more effectively, but more meaningfully, if you look at people with Alzheimer's, music can reawaken them because it's so powerful in our lives. So if you think the power it has and you put that into advertising and how it shapes what we feel, and we've already touched on emotions being really key to advertising effectiveness, then you can see how it is such a great tool to have in the creative toolkit or the advertising effectiveness toolkit. But you've got to have the right track. So I've seen ads with exactly the same visuals, but a different track perform very differently because the music meant that people interpreted what happened in that story very differently.

Kiran Kapur (11:16):
That's really interesting that music has that much power on an ad.

Lynne Deason (11:22):
It does. It was fundamental. So it was two people wanting to drive a car. One of the tracks is, Moi Je Joue, which is all about Je Joue, which is playful in French. So I play the other track was anything you can do, I can do better. Anything you could

Audio from song (11:44):
Do, I could do better. I can do anything better than you. No, you can't. Yes, I can. No you can. Yes I can. No you can't. Yes I can. Yes I can.

Lynne Deason (11:54):
It was a sense of competition. So you had playfulness and you had competition, and the conflict just didn't land in the same way. So the car was joyful in Moi Je Joue, but in the other ad, the car was a source of conflict in this couple's relationship.

Kiran Kapur (12:14):
How very interesting. So one of the things I wanted to ask you, I know you've worked at Kantar and in the industry for a while. What sort of changes have you seen over that time?

Lynne Deason (12:23):
I think there's obvious changes in terms of how the industry has changed. If we think about media context, I've been doing this for over 25 years now. So what was a simple media plan when I began is now much more complex. So I think it's never been a more exciting time, but also never been a more challenging time to be working in marketing. But a significant change I've seen is a sense of responsibility in creating advertising. And that's also reflected in legislation in different markets across the world, and definitely in the UK. So in terms of how we portray people, advertising is another form of media, just like a play or a film. So it shapes people's perceptions of themselves and of others. And so ads in the past did reinforce and establish stereotypes that were quite harmful. And so I think businesses have awakened to this responsibility that how you portray people really matters because you're shaping society, whether you like it or not.

(13:33):
But what we also see is that's actually a really big opportunity. So when you get those portrayals, right, our pretesting tool, so this is the area of the business that I work in where we're looking to predict advertising effectiveness. It shows that ads that portray people positively will be more effective in the short term, but also more effective in the long term. And then some work that we've done with a group called the Unstereotype Alliance, and with Oxford Saïd Business School, shows that actually the sales results also follow. So you get greater short-term sales results, and you get greater long-term sales. So I think that area for me is really interesting. As someone who's passionate about people, I've got this endless curiosity about people as well as about brands and businesses and how they grow.

Kiran Kapur (14:20):
It's interesting how things have changed. I actually was driving behind a lorry a few months ago

(14:26):
And was really shocked because it was a European lorry. I can't remember which country it came from, but it was something to do with forklifts I think. And there was a blonde bombshell not wearing a scantily clad blonde bombshell draped across this product on the back of the lorry. And I was really on the poster, and I was really shocked because yes, I remember that sort of thing happening many years ago, but we don't do that now. I was surprised at how much advertising had moved on, and I hadn't noticed that. It was so shocking to see this in the mid 2020s.

Lynne Deason (15:03):
Yeah, yeah. So your visceral reaction made you reflect on that transition.

Kiran Kapur (15:08):
And it was a visceral reaction as well. It was a real sort of sense of I'd actually wanted to get spray paint out and scribble over it. What was it we used to write this advert? It means women. So tell me about, I know Kantar has done some research about women, but I know you're also very passionate about the way men and young, particularly younger men, are portrayed. So can we explore that as about how men particularly are portrayed in advertising and why you think this is an area of concern?

Lynne Deason (15:37):
So I think businesses, understandably, and it could be argued quite right today, have focused on portraying advertising and making things better for audiences that have been underrepresented or where there's a sense of unfairness. But actually this isn't a zero-sum game. And for men, for example, to take on more of the caring responsibilities, we need to signal that transition is being one that is positive and that society accepts and celebrates. So we've seen I think, a lot of diverse and really interesting portrayals of women, but men tend to have been put into a box of what success is. Success is having lots of money, it's having a great car, it's having beautiful women, but actually being a successful man is lots of different things because men are rich and interesting and diverse in the same way that women are, but we don't celebrate that. So in the same way that young girls and women need to see things like, just like a girl.

Audio from film (16:42):
Now throw like a girl. Aw, so do you think you just insulted your sister? No, I mean, yeah, insulted girls, but not my sister.

Lynne Deason (16:53):
We need to see men and boys portrayed positively to show those role models and to inspire young men and boys, because if you look at suicide rates amongst men, especially younger men, those are really worrying. And I know people might be thinking advertising's a small thing. Yes it is, but it's still a thing, and it still shapes what people think and feel about themselves and what others think and feel about them. So I think it's an opportunity to influence that and to make yourself more relevant as a result. So if you are not reflecting society, you potentially lose that relevance and meaning to people. So it's an opportunity to differentiate yourself and build that affinity that we know is so important to brand growth.

Kiran Kapur (17:40):
And you said it has a direct effect on share prices and value of sales as well. So let's talk about the Kantar research was done amongst the portrayal of women because that's the one I've just read and I know think it's the most up-to-date one. Can you just talk about some of the things that you looked at and some of the things that you found?

Lynne Deason (18:00):
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things we've seen is that there's been an increase in the proportion of ads that are portraying women in traditional roles. So in 2024, we had 8% of ads portraying women in a non-traditional role. And that halved last year, so it was only 4% of ads. So to start with the percentage is quite small, but to see at half is also not a great thing to see. Now, I want to be clear, what I'm not saying here is that we shouldn't show traditional roles. So if you think of a brilliant ad like Cadbury's memory, I see this is the ad where we see a daughter caring for her father who's got dementia.

Audio from advert (18:47):
Hi dad. My daughter bought me this once. I fell off the ladder, she sat on the bed and we shared it. I was only eight, wanted to be your nurse. She bought me one every birthday after that, makes her mom laugh. Why? Because I always hated nuts, but don't tell her, makes her so happy. It does.

Lynne Deason (19:19):
What we see is her resilience in that scenario, and we see that she's caring and she's loving. And so that's quite a traditional role, but it's still a very positive portrayal of her and of her dad. But where we're showing women in ways that are more progressive, we're opening eyes to different possibilities. So this concept that if you can't see it, you can't be it, I think is important. So that was a big change that we saw in our data.

Kiran Kapur (19:47):
It's difficult, isn't it? I think of the John Lewis ad from last year to 2025. It was very interesting. In fact, it was a really lovely portrayal of a father and son relationship.

Lynne Deason (19:57):
Absolutely

Kiran Kapur (19:59):
An older teenage boy at the stage when they're the most uncomfortable with themselves and with the world, giving his father a gift. And it's very, very nicely done. But I did notice that Kantar criticised it because mum was doing the clearing up in the background.

Audio from advert (20:12):
Alright, kids, let's clear all these prezzies off the table. Oh yeah, that one too. Thank you.

Kiran Kapur (20:17):
Which I thought was a little unfair because the focus of it was on the father and son, and yes, mom was clearing in the background, but people do. Somebody has to.

Lynne Deason (20:26):
Yes, that's right. So I think it wasn't that we necessarily criticised it, but what we saw in our data was how people responded to that. So really interesting actually to look at the portrayals and what people thought of them. So in terms of the father-son relationship, that was, as you say, really positive. And what I love about that is that it's the teenager who instigates the connection with his dad. It's not Dad doing that. And I think that's really powerful for teenagers. My son will be 16 on Wednesday. So I can relate to the scenario that you described.

(21:00):
But it was men who saw that as being a particularly positive portrayal in our data. Women, they didn't think it was negative, but they didn't think it was particularly positive. But what we saw was that when we asked people about the portrayal of the women, that was more negative, because it was the mum and it was the daughter who were in the kitchen, focused on doing that task. So I suppose the question is did that need to be in there? You're right, it's not a focus, but I think it just helps us reflect when we look at what people thought about that representation on how that's shown. And it makes us think hard about all of the different characters we have in an ad and how people might respond to them.

Kiran Kapur (21:45):
Yes, I suppose they could have been in the background just having, sharing a cup of tea or doing a jigsaw puzzle or something. Yes. Yeah.

Lynne Deason (21:51):
They were there at the beginning, but did they need to be in the background on that particular shot?

Kiran Kapur (21:56):
Yeah, that is very interesting. So I'm still slightly shocked by only 8% are now only 4% of adverts show women in non-stereotypical roles. Did I get that the right way

Lynne Deason (22:07):
Around non-traditional roles.

Kiran Kapur (22:09):
Okay. So what are we classifying as non-traditional? And sorry, I'm still thrown by the fact that that means 92% of adverts are showing women in traditional roles.

Lynne Deason (22:21):
What would a non-traditional role be for you today?

Kiran Kapur (22:25):
Now there's a good question. I would say women can do anything and be anything. So I dunno if you're describing a non-traditional role as being a woman shown as being an astronaut, and a traditional role, is mum clearing up in the background? Is it that stark?

Lynne Deason (22:42):
Yeah. So I mean, this is something that our teams called code themselves in our database. So non-traditional would be a role where historically you wouldn't have expected a woman to be doing that kind of job or having that kind of role. So you are looking for that sense of difference in those portrayals.

Kiran Kapur (23:02):
Is there an example of an advert where you can see women were presented in perhaps a non-traditional role, and it was a very strong and powerful advert?

Lynne Deason (23:11):
The ad that springs to mind for me doesn't quite do what you are describing, but it directly challenges the responsibility that women bear. So it comes from India, and it's from Aerial. And the campaign is called Share the Load. They've been running it for a few years now in different iterations. And what you see is a woman juggling, she's juggling her job, she's got to go out, but she's got to also do the washing. And her older father is watching her.

Audio from advert (23:42):
Hello? Yeah, I'm just going to send you the email in minutes. Yeah, give me five minutes.

Lynne Deason (23:47):
And you see this realisation and this recognition in him,

Audio from advert (23:52):
My little baby girl, you are all grown up now. You used to play house, and now you manage your own house and your office. I'm so proud, and I'm so sorry. Sorry that you have to do all this alone. Sorry that I never stopped you while you were playing house. I never told you that it's not your job alone, but your husband's too. But how could I say it, when I never helped your mum either, and what you saw, you learned.

Lynne Deason (24:34):
And so he realises that there's a need to share the load. And so he takes on some responsibility then for helping. And so they have this series of ads that challenge those assumptions and behaviours to make people think differently. It's a brilliant campaign that's been hugely successful in India. And what I like about it is that whilst it isn't necessarily showing her in what we might consider a non-traditional role, it is driving change. And then there's another example which people might be surprised at, but it lands really brilliantly, which is for Money Supermarket in the UK where you have Judy Dench, and she has her supermarket superheroes going out and giving people their rewards.

Audio from advert (25:22):
That's him. Go, go, go. Let's give him what he deserves. Your rewards from any supermarket, you're going to love them.

Lynne Deason (25:40):
And so you're seeing women as a superhero, and you're seeing Judy Dench as the master who's guiding them all in kind of a 007 kind of way, but that isn't what we might have expected years ago to see. So that does show women in a really positive, unexpected light.

Kiran Kapur (25:57):
And the other thing I love about that advert is that it's superhero, but they're not finding thousands and thousands pounds worth of savings. It's small amounts of savings for the people that the superheroes are going out to. And I thought that was really lovely because that day-to-day what we do, we all look at our household bills and try and save 10 pounds here and 20 pounds there. So I thought it does really sort of hit into a day-to-day household.

Lynne Deason (26:24):
It does, yeah. It's really relatable and meaningful to people. And from an effectiveness point of view, what matters as well is that the brand is central to the story. So we've talked a lot about emotion, we've talked about positive portrayal of people, and we've talked about the importance of creating memories, but those memories only benefit you and your sales if they're connected to your brand in some way. So it's a brilliant example of a really brand-centric ad that delivers.

Kiran Kapur (26:51):
That's a very good point because how often do we see adverts and we go, oh, that was interesting. Can't remember what the brand was. So yes, you are right, keeping it central. And we've been all the way through. You've been talking about how important this is to the bottom line and how we need to think about this. Could I just come back to you? You mentioned that Kantar has in some research with, I think it was Unstereotype Alliance.

Lynne Deason (27:11):
The Unstereotype Alliance

Kiran Kapur (27:13):
A,nd the Saïd Business School. And you mentioned that you can actually track that there is a monetary response to getting your ad portrayal of people. Correct. Can we just explore that a little bit?

Lynne Deason (27:24):
Of course. Yeah. So we have a question that we ask as part of our creative effectiveness research that looks at positive portrayals, as we've been talking about today. So about how the male is portrayed, how women are portrayed, and we can benchmark that in our database. So that provides data about the people portrayal, but then you can also look at sales responses. So what they've done is they've looked at the relationship between perceptions of brands, between advertising and sales, to connect to the relationship between those things. So what our pretesting data shows is that you get greater short-term sales and greater long-term sales. And then this validation work that's been done shows that actually, yes, that plays out in reality in the market. So brands that are investing in advertising that portrays people more positively are benefiting from greater short-term sales returns. So in the short term, I think it's about 3.5% higher, but the longer term is even greater. So it's over 16% higher long-term sales when you get these portrayals right.

Kiran Kapur (28:35):
I mean, it's great to sort of have actual facts and figures to be able to follow that up. So can I just ask a last question, if I'm sitting as a marketer and I probably will be later on looking at advertising and improving images for use, are there any tips that I should be thinking of to avoid stereotypes?

Lynne Deason (28:57):
So there's quite a few things that spring into my head. I think one is that we all have unconscious bias. So it's essential to think not only how do you respond to that, but how will your audience respond. You've got to have a really nuanced understanding of your audience to portray them appropriately and positively. So investing in that human insight is key. Do research with the audiences to see how they respond to your advertising. That's what we are focusing on doing. And then importantly, there's this effect called knowledge bias. What that means is that you have a great idea. So on the journey to developing an ad, it's often quite a long journey. Brands will be sitting down in February to start developing their Christmas ads, believe it or not. But you naturally become really close to the idea. So the story that you're intending to tell. So when you see it brought to life, of course it's there, it's really obvious. But for people seeing it for the first time, it won't necessarily be. So it's easy for people to misinterpret what you're saying or for there to be something that you're doing that you don't spot that they will because of who they are. So doing that research to make sure it's landing well and that knowledge bias isn't getting in the way of your success is really important.

Kiran Kapur (30:19):
That's a fantastic piece of advice to finish on. Lynne Deason, Head of Creative Excellence at Kantar, thank you so much for your time and your expertise, and that was hugely insightful. Thank you.

Lynne Deason (30:29):
Thanks so much for having me.