Podcast Summary

This podcast discusses the Museum of Brands in London, which houses the Robert Opie Collection. The collection contains over 12,000 consumer packaging and cultural items dating back to the Victorian era. The museum offers a "Time Tunnel" exhibit that provides a nostalgic trip through consumer culture history, as well as exhibits on the evolution of various brands. In addition to the exhibits, the museum offers educational workshops for children, university students, and corporate groups, and is available as an event venue. The museum faces funding challenges common to many independent museums but is working to expand its programming and audience through new exhibitions, improved interactivity, and marketing efforts. The museum also runs a dementia outreach program that provides reminiscence boxes to care homes and isolated caregivers.

 

Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated.

Announcer (00:01):
In this episode of the Cambridge Marketing Podcast, how do you market the world of marketing?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (00:07):
What is very apparent is that you need to still be able to capture people's attention with the internet and all that stuff. There's a lot of stuff out there that people can engage with on demand stuff that they're interested in. So if they come to a museum, you need to be able to do almost the same thing

Announcer (00:23):
This is the Cambridge Marketing Podcast.

Kiran Kapur, host (00:26):
Hello and welcome. This week we are in the realms of marketing museums and I'm very delighted to welcome Paul Botje, who is Director of the Museum of Brands. If you haven't heard the podcast that came live from the Museum of Brands, please do so. We had a fantastic time going around the museum and it was delightful to meet Paul at the end. Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (00:48):
Thank you

Kiran Kapur, host (00:48):
Could we start with just talking about what the Museum of Brands is?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (00:53):
Well, the Museum of Brands is housed in the Lighthouse building in Ladbroke Grove and it houses and takes care of the Robert Opie Collection and Robert Opie collected throughout the ages from the age when he was 16, so this is quite a long time ago, he's in his seventies now. He collected consumer packaging and consumer culture items. So if you come to the museum, you will see all the packaging and the brands from the, well, it goes from the Victorian age, but when people start getting engaged with it, it's from the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and all the way to present day. That's a nostalgia trip. But also because we have all this packaging of all the consumer brands that people generally just throw away, he's kept them. And if you put them all together, you can see how the brand and the colours developed.

Kiran Kapur, host (01:43):
Yeah, the Time Tunnel is just amazing. And yes, you do start the Victorian age and you see, but you recognise the brands right from that moment. It's quite incredible.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (01:52):
Yes, the Time Tunnel is really, it's a deliverable in itself. It's not so much about the brands, it is all about consumer culture. So you will have all sorts of other things in there like toys, like games, board games, you'll have records, you'll have TVs, you'll have radios. There's everything that you would have encountered in your youth if you're my age anyway. And you can walk through and the reactions generally are, oh yes, I used to have one or my father used to have one. I remember my grandmother doing things like that. It's that sort of thing. That's what the Time Tunnel is and that's very much the audience. There is very much a nostalgia audience. On the other side of the museum, we have what we call all the brand development and brand evolution stuff, and this is where we have all these packaging, the iterations of packaging, different packaging from a brand or from several brands from the twenties or whenever they started all the way to present day.

(02:53):
And that's where you can see the evolution of the brand. Now what we don't really do is a lot of interpretation because we have so many objects. We don't really put captions there because it sits in front of the objects, but we do education workshops and we use these things to educate groups of university students and even corporates. And then all of a sudden when you show the evolution of, for instance, the sax assault brand or bore or something like that, it becomes live and it's much easier to educate people and certainly for kids who are very visual, they will just remember it.

Kiran Kapur, host (03:30):
So that brings me onto two really interesting points there. So I'm really interested in the product of the museum and then separately your target audiences. You've already mentioned kids, certainly when we were in there was a very excited party of schoolchildren who are clearly having a ball. Oh yeah, noisy. But they were having a wonderful time. It was great because they were all interacting with it. So what do you see as the product or the product range for the Museum of Brands?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (03:56):
Well, we have four legs for want of a better word. One is obviously the time tunnel, which is mostly nostalgia. So people come to the museum and they go, "oh wow, you remember that, or I remember that'. And it brings up the memories from their past. And the important thing there is that it's not just memories and things that you remember, but it's personal memories. So it becomes very personal. It becomes my father, my uncle, my family or me or that sort of thing. And in most museums you don't have because museum show history and it's a general history, but it's not personal history and that's the catch with the time tunnel, which is very powerful. Then the second thing is obviously we do all these education workshops and we have workshops for a variety. It starts from kids as young as five, six years old, all the way to university graduates and even corporates.

(04:47):
And we have several workshops on, we have 'em on sustainability, we have a brand and evolution, we have that sort of thing. We do a very interesting thing, which is called the Smoothie Lab, where kids are invited to create a smoothie and then they have to create the recipe, they have to create the bottle, they have to create the cap, they have to get the colours, the brand, they have to talk target audience, they have to do the marketing audiences, all that stuff. So it's a really, really powerful thing and we're very lucky to have sponsorship from innocent from that. So that's a really good workshop to do. Then the third thing obviously is the brand evolution, the brand evolution stuff, been through that. The third thing is the event. So the event is the venue hire, so you can hire the museum and we lay on events and parties.

(05:34):
The Lighthouse London, as you know was the hospice for the Terence Higgins Trust, and we have the Terence Higgins Trust Memorial Garden, and we have access to that and we maintain it. Our volunteers maintain it. So it's a fantastic venue for parties and for events and stuff like that. So yeah, so that's sort of the things we do and our target audience. We don't really do too much for families, but I'm trying to change that by introducing more interactivity in particularly the time tunnel buttons you can press and something will start moving and the lights and sound and stuff like that.

Kiran Kapur, host (06:12):
Yes, because the one elements that you don't have is a lot of sound within the museum.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (06:17):
No, no. There's not a lot of interactivity and that's something that we need to work on. I mean there are TV screens and there are ads being shown, particularly when we have exhibitions, but that's missing and that's what we're trying to address.

Kiran Kapur, host (06:30):
So one of the things that always intrigues me about any museum is the amount of things that are not on display. So you have a constant, any museum has a constant background area. So how do you manage that side? You said you were looking after the Robert Opie collection, but presumably you get more and more things as you go through. Where is that held and how do you manage and archive that?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (06:54):
Well, with a great deal of difficulty, I have a very brave curator who is very good at a job, but she tears her has out every now and then. To give you an idea, the museum houses about 12,000 individual objects, which is quite a few,

(07:13):
And that's just in the time tunnel and in the museum itself. We have a couple of cupboards here and there, so there's another a hundred or so on that. But the main bulk of the collection is in the warehouse in Hampshire, and we estimate there is about 800,000 items in there. And believe you, we have no inventory whatsoever. There's no spreadsheets, there's no inventory, there's nothing. We have no idea what we've got other than what we can see. So the creator has been going through taking pictures and writing things down and putting things on spreadsheets, but we're still trying to find a capture tool with which we can capture this into a database. So you can then put exhibitions together. So the exhibitions we are putting on are based on things that we find. It's a bit like Forrest Gump. We go there, we open the box and it's like a box of chocolates.

(08:05):
It could be anything in there, and we find genuine gems. It is quite amazing that warehouse, I mean it's a bad state warehouse. It's leaky and it's draughty and there's no lights, there's no electricity, it's all in carton boxes, there's rodents. It's not pleasant. So we are actively trying to improve that, but that costs a lot of money and that's something we just don't have. But we went there two days ago and yes, we opened one box and we found some really nice glassware for our next exhibition, which is coming up in June. But also we found a box with empty yoghourt cartons, which hadn't even been cleaned out

Kiran Kapur, host (08:46):
EEWW!

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (08:47):
So yeah, there's everything in there and it ranges from furniture to chopper bicycles to a penny faring to old ice cream signs. We have a 1950s kitchen in there. There's all sorts.

Kiran Kapur, host (09:05):
So you are painting a wonderful picture of how difficult that is. So when you decide to put an exhibition, can you go to the, I was assuming you went to the warehouse, you opened a cupboard that was labelled, I dunno, 1950s kitchen and went great. We'll just pull all that in clearly. It's not quite like that

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (09:22):
Or I wish. No, no. Clearly it is not like that. We currently have an exhibition on AD Women, which is women who are Are In Advertising, which you saw the exhibition and you can saw it's quite a large hall

Speaker 4 (09:37):
And

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (09:38):
There is about 15, 16 cases in there, all with individual items. There's about 500 items in there. They have all been found by accident and pulled together by the curator over the last six months and she's done a stunning job to put it all together and it's a great thing. But the next set of exhibitions are just like that, the glass exhibition that's coming up. We have just gone back yesterday and found two more boxes. Hey, fantastic. We can use that kind of thing. We do plan them in advance so when we do go, we do look out for these things, but essentially we can't really rely on searching for items to put things together. We need to be a bit more clever about that.

Kiran Kapur, host (10:20):
Gosh, I mean obviously exhibitions presumably is quite important for any museum because it brings people in, it gives people a reason to come.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (10:27):
Yeah, as you mentioned, already funding in the last six months is extremely difficult. The Museum Association just on the research and they said that 60% of all museums in the uk, the independent ones, they are planning to cut costs and layoff stuff. And also even the big ones that take modern are they're shedding people. We're fortunately not in that position yet.

(10:54):
But it is extremely tough. I've been asking for some funding for our dementia outreach programme, which we've been running for the last five years and I've struck out for the last six months. I'm on a WhatsApp with various other museum directors in the lands, about 30 of them, and they all say, to a T, that only one of them has had any funding since last November. So times are really tough at the moment. So admissions and exhibitions is the only other way that you can get people in. We've instigated a very full programme for 2025 and going into 2026, really exciting stuff. I'm hoping that through better marketing, increased pr, we can get more people through the door because that really is the only way that I'm going to be able to survive.

Kiran Kapur, host (11:44):
I mean, yes, there's been reports out quite recently talking about the problems with museums. How have you seen, I know you are relatively new to the museum sector and we'll come on to that later, but how has the museum sector changed over time?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (11:56):
I can't really answer that. Like you say, I've just been with the Museum of Brands, a proper museum for want of a better word, for the last six months. Before that I was the interim general manager of Frogmore Paper Mill, which is a museum of sorts, but it was a working Victorian paper mill, so it was more of a visitor centre. I visited where people could go. So it had aspects of a museum, but we were lucky we had our own income so I could make the books balance. That really hasn't changed the audience there. I haven't seen changing. People come for the same reasons. They come to be entertained, they come to be educators, they come to be wowed. They want to see something they've never seen before. The audience that we get in the Museum of Brands is very much a nostalgia, mostly is about nostalgia and nostalgia is a very good feeling. I have been looking at our reviews as museum directors do, and I have not been able to find one single negative review, which is amazing.

(12:57):
And it's not just good reviews now everybody seems to love us and it's that personal memory thing that you get, which is a really feel good thing. So people are happy to come and to pay the price that we are on par with most of the other museums in London. I think we should be able to offer more for what we are asking for, but we have no complaints and people seem to go away really happy, so fantastic. It's just that from a management point of view and from an exhibition point of view, I wish we could do more and that's just simply a matter of not enough money to do really good things like have extra staff. I have to scrabble around for a marketing budget, which is difficult and we're going to talk about that in a minute I think. But those things are key for a museum and I think museums have changed that They've become much more slick in their operations and of the technology is helping. There was a technology fair which are unfortunately missed the last couple of days and there was some amazing technology there which museums can use to while there and educate their audience.

Kiran Kapur, host (14:12):
Do you think that the audience are expecting more from a museum? I mean, I remember going as a child and you literally just looked and looked at things. Is there much more expectation that I will be able to interact with things or I will understand things or there'll be a multimedia experience?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (14:28):
I think definitely that's changed, but I think it's more changed because the attention span of people has decreased, and I'm generalising here, but the younger generation has a reputation of having a shorter attention span than maybe we had in our youth. I can't comment on that. But what is very apparent is that you need to still be able to capture people's attention and with the internet and all that stuff, there's a lot of stuff out there that people can engage with on demand stuff that they're interested in and therefore they will be captivated. So if they come to a museum, you need to be able to do almost the same thing. You need to capture their imagination, captured their attention span for long enough to be entertained and educated and all that stuff. And that for that technology and innovative ways of displaying the products and telling the stories is the key. And this is where really I feel that the museum of brands we need to do better and not just me, I think other museums have this have a similar issue. When I go around and I think, okay, this looks fantastic, but where's the story? Where's the nuance? What do I take away from this? And in particularly the younger generation that we get, the older generation, they mostly come from nostalgia. They're usually

(15:48):
happy, they've got the feel-good factor. The younger generation don't have that much memories, therefore they need to be more entertained. They want to have the story behind it. They have the whys, why did that brand change? Why did that Perrier bottle go from a clear [glass] back in the twenties to green? Those are the things that they want to know.

Kiran Kapur, host (16:10):
That makes sense. One of the things you mentioned, and I think the listeners will be interested in, you mentioned dementia boxes and you mentioned those as almost as a product. So can we just explore what those are?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (16:23):
Right, so the Museum of Brands has been running a dementia outreach programme for the last five years. Funding stopped last November. So I've been trying to get new funding to renew it. And basically what it is that we try and to, well, we create two types of boxes. It's a box, maybe a shoebox, and in that shoebox you will have replica brands from the 1950s and sixties at the moment. So there will be a replica Kit Kat in there. There will be a baked beans tins in there, there'll be some old sweets in there. There might bes a memory stick in there for some songs. There's an activity book which people then can do. And it's all aims and those boxes are aimed at care homes where the carers can interact with people who have memory problems or dementia. And through these brands and these awareness, they get their memories back. So it is a reminiscence sessions as we call them.

(17:21):
It's great because it does work. I mean, I went to one of these sessions and I was bowled over. There was a lady sitting next to me who didn't say anything and all of a sudden she picked up one of these fake suites and she said, oh, my husband used to have that when he went to war. And all of a sudden she started talking about that and it came back and I had a conversation with her and I'd never known for an hour, no problem, just chatting about the war and all that stuff. So those are the care box that we do for the care homes and we train the care staff to deliver these sessions. And we also have trained staff to train other staff or other carers. So we have this UK wide network of about 150 to 200 care homes where these boxes are. You get them for free because sponsored obviously by the funders and they use these things on a monthly basis. They do these reminiscent sessions with them and they go down very well. The other type of box is more, it's a bit longer and it's shaped in such a way that it can go through a letterbox. It has basically the same stuff in it if it fits. But these are aimed at carers who are not in a care home and who are maybe not able to go to a care home or come to the museum.

(18:39):
So these are more people who live isolated and there it's really powerful because mostly in those situations it's family members taking care of family members. So if the person with dementia has a memory, it is a shared memory with that particular family member

(18:56):
And there, all of a sudden the guilt goes away because some carers feel guilt when they are trying to entertain their relative with dementia. And this is something that they can do together and they bring these memories together. So it's a real feel God factor. Now, this has been going over the last five years, and again, we train people and we do outreach and people go there, but what we now want to do for the next three years, obviously expand in the network with more care homes and with more reminiscence people. By the way, we touched about 200,000 people in the UK in the last four years, so it is a big group, however, so that there are about a million people in the UK with dementia. So we've got a long way to go. So we want to expand the network and we also want to do more specific cultural brand and memory boxes. So one specific for the Jewish community, one for the Caribbean community, one for the far Asian community because those communities have different associations with some of the brands. Rob Adobe Collection is very UK focused. Yes, there is some international brands there, but it's very UK focused. Whereas if you do this, you have better chance that you bring up these memories and we want to focus more on taking care of the carers. My father passed away from Alzheimer's and my mother was the one who suffered because she had to take care of him. So there is more of an emphasis on supporting the carers in the new project for the next three years.

Kiran Kapur, host (20:21):
Fantastic. And there is a product that I don't think anyone would expect a Museum of Brands to be offering.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (20:28):
No, but we're in a unique position to be able to do that because we have access to these brands. I mean, if you look at the box, it's very simple. Anyone can do it. It's not rocket scientist stuff. It's just you have the idea and the efforts behind it is to create the games, to dig out the right stuff in the right time period. The boxes over the last five years were from the fifties and sixties mainly. And as the population gets older, we're now going to concentrate sixties and seventies and it moves on. So everything needs to change and we have to have different games, different music, different association words, stuff like that.

Kiran Kapur, host (21:04):
Fantastic. You've been at the museum, as you said, for less than a year, about six months. What's it like to come into an organisation? Something, I think lots of people are very fascinated by that you're coming into an organisation, clearly you're going to want to make changes. Nobody moves to an organisation to keep the organisation the same. What does that feel like? How do you do it? Give us some insights.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (21:28):
So yeah, I mean my career has been like that. It's been the last 15 years I have gone into companies, private companies, but also the museums to turn, well, not turnaround is a big, big word. I'm not that special, but it is really making changes for the better, making it more efficient. And you have to be very careful on how you do this. You have to be diplomatic and tactful the first week or two. You're going to have to suss out people to see who's important, who's not, who's got a sensitive soul, who is not, who's willing to come with you on this journey, who are the active blockers, who are not. There's loads of these things you can find on the internet. All these things to do. I tend to do it by feel, but with the Museum of brands and the previous museum as well, they were run in a particular way simply because it was run that way and it was pick them the circumstance.

(22:21):
And some of the things were just like, oh my God, how can you not see that you have to do this? So they're very easy things to do and they have direct impact. And then once you start making a bit of an impact and you get people on board with you, and this way of doing that, you ask the questions to which you actually already know the answer, but you want the answer to come from the staff because then it's their idea. And therefore if you then support it, you are supportive. But also they're engaged with that idea other than me saying, please do this. And they'll say, why? It's not my idea. Whatever the little management tricks that you can do. And as long as people see that you got their back and you are pushing in the right direction and they're happy with that direction, then people will do it and help you. And that's the big thing. You ask people to help you. If you ask a person, please, can you help me? Their mindset changes and they want to help because that's nature. And then you have a better chance of getting what you want. And I'm giving all my management secrets away here

Kiran Kapur, host (23:28):
[laughter] But it's interesting, isn't it? Because so much of management theory and the way we think perhaps of management is we are almost trained to think of somebody directing. If I'm a manager, then I'm in charge and I tell people what to do. But you are absolutely right. That isn't how you get the best out of people.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (23:46):
No, no. It's a bit like herding cats. It really is. You have one goal and you need to constantly move people around to go in that same direction. Way in my past, I was working for a market research company and I had a particularly bad day. My inbox was longer at the end of the day than my outbox. And I had a drink with the CEO afterwards on a Friday night or whatever it was, and said, "Chris, this is a day where you really ought not to pay me because I haven't achieved anything". So he asked me, "what did you do?" So I explained to him, I had this meeting, I had that thing, I had to talk to that person means you changed this particular code. I had four clients on the road, all that stuff, and in the meantime, I haven't done what you asked me to do on Monday.

(24:27):
And he says, well, this is actually a day that I should pay you because that's exactly what I pay you for as a COO, as an Operations Director, this is what you do. You herd the cats into the right direction. And that's always stayed with me. So that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not a person who directs things like point and do this. It's more about, 'listen, we have this organisation, these are some of the issues. They're fairly easy. What are we going to do about them?' And it's a collaborative effort. I mean, it's one of the reasons why I stayed in museum or when I went to the museum, when I came out of the previous one, I was a self-employed business advisor. I could have gone back into corporates. But because of the charity sector having such wonderful people, they're loyal to thet, they give you everything.

(25:15):
They really go over and beyond because they're there to because they want to be there, not because they have to be there. Yes, they have to be there because they have a job, but they could get a job elsewhere. They want to be there. And there's a difference there between the corporate world and the charity world. And I decided, well, I want to stay in here because I like it. This is my kind of people. But I have to say the first three months, I was a bit scared that the board was going to say, hold on mate, you can't change that much in one go. Please leave. You're breaking our museum. The danger if you change too much too quickly, you have a risk of breaking it. So you have to keep an eye on is this going well or not?

Kiran Kapur, host (25:57):
And do you do that by feel and judgement ? Is that this pace of change feels about right?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (26:02):
Yes, it is a bit of a feeling. And I hate to say this, I've got - God, I've got 40 years experience - that sound old! But yes, that is an experience thing. I can quite clearly see this when younger personnel do these things or ask these things that they just can't see that. But the only way that you can see this happening is by the state of staff. Are they still happy? Are they still engaged? Are they coming to work? Are they smiling? Do we have jokes at the office? Can we be serious? It's all those things. If your staff remains engaged, you'll be fine. As soon as you start losing people for the wrong reasons, then you need to scale back or do something different.

Kiran Kapur, host (26:46):
And my final question is always around careers. And I think it's really important to know that you don't have to start in charities, museums, and end up there. Your career can go in different pathways. You've had quite an interesting squiggly career. Can you talk a little bit about how you've gone from one to the other? You've sort of said, well, I'm here because this feels like my tribe, but you didn't start in that area. So in a way, why was the corporate world where you started?

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (27:16):
So as you may have heard from my accent on Dutch by birth, I did a law degree, tax law degree in Holland, then came to the UK to do a master's. And I was fully planning to go back to Holland because I had a job lined up with a lawyers firm, et cetera. But I was lucky enough to met my wife. She was a lawyer. This was the only country where she's from Malaysia. This was the only country where we both could practise. He's a practising lawyer here. I'm not. And we stayed and hey, here I am, 40 years later, I rolled into the paper industry, which is a big international company, mainly because of my languages. I spoke, I speak quite a few languages, and they were about to take over a German company, my Germans fluent. So I was as a Dutchman in between the English and the Germans, which was an interesting seven years.

(28:01):
I sort of stayed in the paper industry for a while, and then I didn't want to become Mr. Paper. So an opportunity came around with a direct marketing agency as an operations director to I had become logistics and operations and planning in the paper industry. So I went the operations role, the operations way already. I was with Miller Star for four years when they were amalgamated into a larger company on MRM and then moved to online market research and then offline market research for 15 years as operations manager, the COO. My last one again, was a takeover. I was made redundant because they already had an operations director. So I then decided, well, I don't really want to work for a boss anymore. So I decided I'll strike out more myself. I became an independent small and medium enterprise business advisor, joined a little franchise and had some very, very good 15 years worth of lots of small clients ranging from bakeries to pizza manufacturer to electricity company. There was a Italian delicate shop in Hamstead. I advised the hospital a variety of things, which was really, really interesting.

(29:18):
But then Covid unfortunately killed my business because my business is face-to-face. And during Covid, I couldn't do the face-to-face anymore. Business owners don't let you into their company until they trust you, and trust is built up over time, and I couldn't spend that time within, so that just killed it. Fortunately, I was the director of paper mill and that kept me going, and I stepped in there as a trustee. In 2011, the general manager had a heart attack and dropped the board, asked who's run some company. So I stuck my hand up so I can run the company for a couple of weeks. So I stepped in for two weeks and I stayed for 12 years.

Kiran Kapur, host (29:56):
Fantastic.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (29:57):
Interim general management in the UK. Definitely. I was due to leave about two and a half years ago when we put a, it was loss making at the time. We had a big debt and the team and myself through time managed to get us out of debt and then made a marginal profit for the last couple of years. So I was ready to hand it over to the next CEO. And then unfortunately, the place called Fire, we had an arson attack and the mill went up in flames, no visitor centre, no visitors, no cafe. It was all gone. Insurance took 18 months to pay out. So I stayed on for that to help rebuild. They're still not open. I'm hoping they're going to open probably early next year, but who knows. And then I decided to afterwards, it's time for me to leave. And so then I left. And then during the period of time that I was looking for other positions, do I become another business consultant again? Do I go back into the corporate world or do I stay in the charity world? And I stayed in the charity world. I wasn't aiming for a museum. I was aiming for the third sector.

(31:05):
And this came up and yeah, had interviewed, liked the place, liked the people, got along with Robert Opie, who is still in there. And we get along. We do. We d0 get along. We've got a good board. We're looking for some new trustees because one of the board premiers just resigned. They're too busy. He's doing the ABBA experience, so he's too busy to do with us. So if anyone's interested in a trusteeship, let me know. And yeah, I've got a fantastic team of people working for me, and we just recruited new marketing execs, so we've got some new marketing coming along. I'm still also looking for a fundraiser because I'm trying to do it and I'm striking out. So if anyone hears this and is interesting in a fundraising role, please give me a call.

Kiran Kapur, host (31:46):
Paul Botje, thank you so much for that insight into the Museum of Brands. I have to say, you said that your reviews were 'everyone was happy when they came away' Having done a podcast from there for a morning, the three of us that came away, absolutely ecstatic. I been really enjoyed it. Excellent. It is a lovely product, a museum that you have.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (32:05):
Keep looking at our programme. We've got four new exhibitions planned between now and the new year. So they're all really exciting in their own role. And one in September is going to be particularly big. So yeah, keep an eye out on our website and our newsletters if you are engaged.

Kiran Kapur, host (32:22):
Fantastic. Thank you very much indeed for your time and your insights.

Paul Botje, Museum of Brands (32:26):
It's my pleasure. Thank you.