Podcast summary

This interview featured Sarah Townsend, a freelance marketing copywriter and author of "Survival Skills for Freelancers." She discussed the realities of freelancing, drawing from her 21 years of experience. [00:01] The conversation covered her personal journey into self-employment, the common mismatch between the expectation of freedom and the reality of client demands, and the critical importance of focusing on the freelancer as an individual. Key topics included combating loneliness by building a community, overcoming imposter syndrome and self-doubt, and the necessity of shifting one's mindset to that of a business owner. [16:00] Townsend also addressed the thorny issue of working for free, advocating for valuing one's expertise, and concluded by highlighting the significant benefits of freelancing, such as flexibility and the opportunity to do inspiring work. [17:20]

Her book Survival Skills for Freelancers gives plenty of helpful tips.

 

Key Points

  • The initial motivation for freelancing, often freedom and flexibility, frequently did not match the reality, where clients often dictated terms. [00:41]
  • The personal and emotional aspects of freelancing, such as isolation, self-doubt, and fear of failure, were just as important to address as the practical business elements. [03:40]
  • Building a community with other freelancers was crucial for support, collaboration, and overcoming loneliness, transforming competitors into colleagues. [05:06]
  • Adopting the mindset of a business owner, rather than "just a freelancer," was essential for gaining client respect, setting boundaries, and charging appropriately. [16:03]
  • Freelancers should not work for free, as they possess valuable skills and experience, regardless of how long they have been self-employed. [17:22]
  • Imposter syndrome was a common struggle, and strategies to combat it included seeking support from a community, avoiding social media during periods of vulnerability, and reframing failure as a learning opportunity. [19:35]
  • The rewards of freelancing were significant, including true flexibility, the ability to choose inspiring clients and projects, and the potential for strong financial returns. [13:47]

 

Podcast Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated.

 

Kiran Kapur (00:01):
My guest today is Sarah Townsend. Sarah is a freelance marketing copywriter and the author of Survival Skills for Freelancers.

Sarah Townsend (00:09):
Whatever you do, whether you are a web developer, designer, copywriter, editor, whatever skill you have, if you've been doing that for 10 years, okay? It doesn't matter that you're not experienced as a freelancer, you are still experienced in that skill area.

Kiran Kapur (00:24):
Sarah, welcome. We're going to talk about the sort of good, the bad and the challenging parts of freelancing. Sarah, can we start with how you got into freelancing?

Sarah Townsend (00:33):
Yeah, absolutely. I always say I don't think anybody goes through their childhood telling their parents and teachers that they want to be a freelancer when they grow up. It tends to be a means to an end and something that we find our way to after perhaps gaining experience in employment. And the reason that we like the idea of going freelance is always that freedom and flexibility, but actually in reality, the expectation and the reality don't match up. So in a nutshell, I fell into marketing, ended up working for a magazine publishing agency down in Bristol in Clifton, and after about three and a half years I became pregnant and knew then that I didn't want to come back to work full-time, at least initially. So I approached my boss who said no to the idea of me coming back part-time because I was an account manager and an editor, and that basically gave me the kick up the bum. I needed to start my own business. So quite often it's something that fits in with our lifestyles and we think, yeah, this is great. I can pick where I work when I work and how I work, but in reality, it's not always that straightforward. So after 20 odd years of freelancing myself, I decided to write a book to share all the experiences that I had learned and to really help other people find freelance success a lot more quickly and by making a lot fewer mistakes than I did.

Kiran Kapur (02:05):
One of the things I loved about your book was you talk about the practicalities of being freelance and self-employed, and we will come onto those and I think that's where people often start with, do I need a logo do I need a website? But actually you start with the person.

Sarah Townsend (02:20):
Yeah, I think that's really important to say about the book. There are a lot of books out there that focus on the practicalities, what you need to do with the procedures and the processes of being self-employed. But I think what makes survival skills for freelancers different is because it does focus on the individual and the importance of putting yourself first. Because ultimately we go freelance because we like the idea of being our own boss, and we quickly realise that we are not actually the ones setting the terms. Instead, we're letting our clients dictate when we work, and quite often, at least to begin with, how much they pay us and basically sort of setting the terms. And that's not really what we started out for. So it's important to kind of realise that we are in control and that we are not alone as well.

(03:20):
I think that's something that a lot of people don't realise. And I wanted to really stress that throughout the fact that we often feel that we are struggling with certain issues as freelancers that really tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people are also facing the same challenges. And those are things like the isolation and the loneliness that come from working alone at home on your own. And let's be honest, it's not just freelancers facing that situation right now and things like dealing with the fear of failure, self-doubt, comparison, isis, and that feeling that everybody else is doing better than we are. So those things are really, really important to address and they're really the main focus of the book. It's very hot on your sleeve and it very much is a personal guide to freelance life.

Kiran Kapur (04:16):
So yes, I think the isolation is something that we, yes, we're all experiencing working from home at the moment. But I know when I was a freelancer and I was freelance for just over 10 years, nobody ever asked me on a Monday morning if I'd had a good weekend because actually your clients don't care. And if they are polite enough to ask you, they certainly don't want to hear all about it. And that was the side of things I missed. But you are very keen on finding a community of freelancers.

Sarah Townsend (04:44):
Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of people underestimate the power of finding like-minded people, and I talk about that a lot because I think that once you realise the power of the community and just how much it brings to how fulfilling and how enjoyable your freelance life is, it's just a no-brainer. You want to surround yourself with like-minded people. And one of the things that I think is really important to point out about this is there are two ways to look at the people who did the same job as you can look at them as your competitors and you can kind of close off for fear of them stealing your ideas or poaching your clients or however you want to put it. Or you can see them as other people who experience the same issues as you do and who have different experience to share and who can support you and you can support them.

(05:40):
And let's be honest, when we support other people and help other people, we also get something from it. It makes us feel special. So we can collaborate, we can share work, we can help one another out. We can ask for advice, we can share tips and knowledge, and it's just a really great place to be when you find the right community of people. One of the places that I recommend looking for this is Facebook groups, but there are also things like Slack channels. You can set up a mastermind of like-minded people through WhatsApp, for example, and then you can join in with Twitter chats. And there are even things like, there's a really active community I think on LinkedIn, and I think that has improved quite a lot recently. A lot of people put off LinkedIn, they think it's a bit stuffy, a bit professional, but I think when you put out who you really are and you are completely authentic to yourself, you will attract the people who are attracted to that. You might put off a few people who think, oh, oh, she's using an emoji in her post that's not very professional, but that's me. So the people who you attract are the people who you repower just as important as the people you attract because they're not your natural audience. And the more you lean into being yourself and being authentic to who you are, the more deep connections and more meaningful connections you're likely to make as a result.

Kiran Kapur (07:14):
So let's look at the type of characteristics of a person that is a successful freelancer. You have quite a section on the type of person that works well and the type of characteristics that you need. So tenacity was one of the first ones you picked in the book, I noticed.

Sarah Townsend (07:32):
Yeah. So when I first started the process of writing the book, that was just over a year ago now, I put out a tweet saying, to be a successful freelancer, you need to be and kind of people to fill in the blanks. So I got hundreds of responses to that tweet and I kind of pulled together. And as you say in the book, there's sort of a matrix of the most popular characteristics that kept coming up in time and time again. And there are certainly things that will stand you in good stead. A lot of people say to me, oh, do you have to be extrovert to be a freelancer? Do you have to be really confident? I have to say, no, you don't. Certainly those things can help you in certain situations because you do have to put yourself out there. You have to be present, you have to be visible.

(08:23):
Otherwise, where are your clients going to come from? How are people even going to know who you are and what you do? So yeah, there are certain characteristics such as being motivated. So a self-starter, being organised, being disciplined, and not being distracted every few moments by social media or by the TV on during the day or whatever it is that is your own particular distraction. But it's certainly, I believe if you looked in the book, if you didn't identify with any of the qualities, you are going to be in trouble certainly. But certainly if there are some that you think, oh, well, I'm not like that at all. I'm not confident, I'm not outgoing, I'm not extrovert, don't let that put you off because all of the qualities I say, even if you consider something to be a weakness, you can reframe it so that you look at it as a strength.

(09:22):
To give an example of that, one of the things that cropped up again and again in the response to the tweet was patience. You need to be patient. And there are many reasons for that, not least that it can take a long time to turn strangers into clients, as we all know. But with impatience, impatient people get things done. So I think I probably wouldn't have written and self-published and designed and everything with the book within about five months in total. Had I not been an impatient person, my focus has to be right, let's get it done, let's get it done. Why wait, just do it sort of thing. Yeah, so that's an example of turning a weakness into a strength. And look at the flip side and don't be down on yourself because you consider something to be a weakness. They can always be turned into a strength.

Kiran Kapur (10:20):
Yes, you have a nice bit with them. And one of the things characteristics people had obviously picked up was being thick skinned, and you said actually you felt you were thin skinned, but that meant that you listened to people.

Sarah Townsend (10:29):
Yeah. I find I have more of a difficulty turning, being thin-skinned into a positive if I'm perfectly honest. But it's something that it's just who I am. It's the sort of situation where if you've just given a presentation and you've got a hundred amazing comments saying, wow, that was great, that was so helpful, and then someone else says That was rubbish. You focus on the one that was negative, and I'll stew over it and I'll kind of go down rabbit holes of self investigation and just feeling sorry for myself, and that's not a helpful trait. So yeah, being thick skin is definitely helpful because you put yourself in the firing line for a lot of rejection. There's a lot of possibility of rejection when you're freelance in a lot of different ways, and you have to be prepared to be fairly resilient to that rejection. But the brilliant thing is that resilience is not something you either have or you don't have. It's like a muscle. It's that kind of bounce back ability that people say that you respond better under pressure and stress and you just recover more quickly from negative events that happen. So that's something that everybody look into and work on and actually improve on.

Kiran Kapur (11:59):
Okay, so let's look at some of the things that you are very passionate about. So one of the things, you wrote it very recently on LinkedIn where you said, don't say I'm just a freelancer, and I thought that was such an important message, so let's explore that a bit. We all say it. I mean, oh, I'm just a freelance. And I was very quickly told that I wasn't a freelance, I was a consultant, and because that sounded better,

Sarah Townsend (12:25):
There are two elements to this argument, and one of them is sort of semantics, because really early on in the book I explain that it's a question of words. So not everybody who has read the book would even consider themselves to be a freelancer. They might prefer the term entrepreneur or consultant or solo worker, or even just a self-employed person or a small business owner. So it doesn't really matter what you call yourself, it's how you see yourself in your mind. If you are using freelance as some sort of, it's not as important as other forms of working. I mean, of course there might be people who have full-time jobs and are doing a bit of freelance on the side as a side hustle. Not the biggest fan of that expression, but there we go. If you are just doing that on the side, then fair enough.

(13:18):
Maybe you might say, oh, I just do a bit of freelancing on side. That's kind of okay. But if you are a full-time permanent, that is your job, actually scrap that. You can be part-time. But if your job is the traditional model of exchanging time for money, so you are providing a service and you're getting paid for providing that service for more than one client, whatever you call yourself is up to you. The fact that a lot of freelancers become limited companies because they like the idea of calling themselves a director, that's quite nice too. If that gives you a bit of confidence, that's great. But a lot of it does come down to that. And by calling yourself just a freelancer, you are putting yourself down in a way that your clients and potential clients and customers will pick up on. And if you don't have that really strong feeling of self-belief and you don't really at the most basic level, really in your heart, truly believe in the value that you are bringing to any exchange with any clients and any relationship, they will pick up on that.

(14:29):
And the things that come on the back of that are you'll end up in a relationship where your clients are kind of, I'm doing this thing with my hands right now. You can't see it. Your clients are kind of up here as the client, and you are down here as the supplier. So they're in charge, they're setting the terms. They're saying, we need this when, and you are basically just reactive. You are not working on a partnership level. What you want to aim for is this that I'm doing now with my hands on the same level, this kind of relationship where it's built on mutual trust and mutual respect. And part of the reason or part of the way to get to that kind of relationship is by treating your freelance business as a business, treating yourself as a businessman or a businesswoman, and making the investments into your time and your own personal development, but also financial investments into your business.

(15:28):
Just simple things like building on your brand, having a decent professional website, using a professional email address, these sorts of things. By doing that, and by putting out this, no, I'm guarding my energy and my time because I am a business owner and this time is important, and yes, I'm working from home, but no, you may not pop by for coffee because I'm working. You can't pop by for coffee right now, even if you wanted to. But it's a lot to do with self-worth, and it's a lot to do with the way your clients see you. So it is an important mindset shift to make. And the more, there's a phrase that I use in the book, I quickly realised in my own freelance journey that if I wanted half decent clients with half decent budgets, I needed more than a half-assed approach. And as soon as I kind of got myself into the mindset of a business owner, my clients started to take my business more seriously, and they were more prepared to pay higher rates and to work using the terms that I was setting out and really to let me set the boundaries, which is the way it should be.

Kiran Kapur (16:39):
Yes. I have to say, looking at your LinkedIn profile, you have one of the most comprehensive ways to contact me that I've ever seen in LinkedIn. [injection] Oh, really? Oh, that's nice. But it's very clear, and it tells me that you are a business because that's what a big business would do. There's no reason why a small business can't do that, do that as well. I have to say, every time I do an interview and I talk about LinkedIn, I start feeling embarrassed to buy my own LinkedIn profile, but that's another story. Oh, really? But yes, I think there is a lot about just presenting yourself as this is who I am, this is what I do. And to come on from that, one of the things you're very keen on, is it okay to work free sometimes?

Sarah Townsend (17:18):
Oh, that thorny issue. Yeah, I do talk about that a lot. And I am especially mindful at the moment that there are a lot of people out there who are just setting up freelance and don't consider themselves to have the experience, and they use that as sort of an excuse to work free while they're in inverted commas 'building their portfolio'. One thing I think it's really important to recognise is that you may not be experienced as a freelancer, but that doesn't mean you don't have the experience in your special skill area. So whatever you do, whether you are a web developer, designer, copywriter, editor, whatever skill you have, if you've been doing that for 10 years, it doesn't matter that you're not experienced as a freelancer. You are still experienced in that skill area. So don't let people kind of, something I think is particularly challenging at the moment is there are businesses out there using COVID as an excuse to say, well, you shouldn't be charging for this, but actually you've worked hard for your experience.

(18:25):
You have bills to pay, you have a mortgage or rent to pay, and you wouldn't ask your mechanic to fix your car free or your hairdresser to do your hair for free. So why people think it's okay to ask creatives, I don't know, but it's not okay. It is okay to skills swap. If you can find somebody who has a complimentary skill or something that you can benefit from, then sure, feel free to suggest an exchange of service. But no, I don't believe it is okay to work free. And I think it has an inherent kind of problem in that people are not valuing their own worth. And yes, this is a chapter in the book because it's something that's very difficult. And I do share some strategies on how to really start seeing your worth and how to charge your worth, because it's a big issue and it's something that everybody faces.

Kiran Kapur (19:18):
Yes, to be fair, I don't think it's just COVID that gives people the excuse. You always get clients that come to your potential, clients that come to you that go, well, it'll be good publicity for you to work with me. And you think, well, good,

Sarah Townsend (19:29):
Good exposure. That works both way, that old chestnut.

Kiran Kapur (19:33):
I think we all get that one. Okay. Two other things I wanted to pick up on. You talked, you said the word "comparison-itis", which I thought was great, otherwise known as imposter syndrome. I think we all suffer from that no matter what we do. It's not necessarily just when you're freelance, but when you are working in an office, it's sometimes easier to find somebody else to go, have I got this right? Am I doing the right thing? So how has the freelancer do you overcome that?

Sarah Townsend (19:56):
Yeah. First of all, I think it is really important to say yes. It's not something that just freelancers suffer from. And it is, I mean, certainly something I found out in the process of writing the book is everybody I spoke to, male, female, experienced new to the game. Everybody admitted that they suffered from it from time to time. And yes, it is very closely related to self-doubt. It's slightly different to self-doubt. It's kind of that feeling of being that you might be found out or whatever. But also, kind of in the process of my research, I discovered that really talented people who we all kind of admire, Tom Hanks, Natalie Portman, Serena Williams, lady Gaga, mayor Angelou, those people are all high profile individuals who have admitted to having imposter syndrome. I think the point that you make about not having somebody to talk to that compounds the issue.

(20:52):
So again, coming back to the importance of community, it's something that when you do have those people around you, even if you have a very small circle of trusted friends or colleagues or peers who do a similar job to you and who really get it, you can keep talking and just realise how normal it is. And just by that act of normalisation, it feels like less of a big scary thing, and it feels like something that you're not dealing with alone. And I think that's part of the battle. So keep talking about it. Yeah, avoid "comparison-itis". I call it that because I think social media is the, it's not my term, by the way. I can't claim credit for it, but social media I think is the absolute worst for this. And I think Instagram, in my experience, it's particularly bad. It's great to see what other people in your sphere are getting up to.

(21:50):
If you scroll intentionally, and even if you kind of have a notebook by your side and you are kind of scribbling down a few ideas that you can take inspiration and adapt those ideas for your own business and in a way that might work for you personally. But if you get to the stage where you think, oh gosh. So from my perspective, other authors who've written books on similar subjects, I have a choice to go down that kind of rabbit hole of thinking, "oh gosh, this person is doing this so much better than I am". But remember, don't compare your inside to someone else's outside. So social media is very much the glossy edited highlights, and it's important to remember that. So if you are having a really bad self-doubt, wobbly fear of failure, all the wobbles and all the insecurities have kicked in, I would say stay the heck off social media, because it's really damaging.

(22:49):
And it's actually positive occasionally to have a social media detox. So say, look, this is not doing me any good. Recognise that fact clock it. Decide, make a conscious choice to stay off social media so that it doesn't happen. I've read the other day actually, that social media tends to be, it tends to, I can't think of quite the right word. It's like it enhances your mood if you go onto social media when you're in a good place, it tends to be a really positive experience. But if you go in when you are feeling those feelings of doubt and fragility and vulnerability, it tends to make you feel worse. [interjection: So it amplifies] Amplifies - yes, thank you. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah. So I would say be aware of your mood. And another thing, I do actually share six strategies in the book, but one more. So we've covered three, give yourself permission to make mistakes and to fail, because it's important to remember, I think that when you fail, you learn. And when you learn, you grow. So you're not just growing as an individual, but you're growing as a business owner. If the only mistake to make is not to try. So if you don't fail, sometimes that means that you are not trying. So it is important to take risks.

Kiran Kapur (24:12):
That's absolutely great. Now, let's talk about some of the really good things about being freelance. We've talked about some of the problems and some of the practicalities, but what, what's good? Why would anybody want to do this?

Sarah Townsend (24:22):
Oh, I love it. I mean, I'm still doing it 21 years later, so there must be something good about it, right? So yeah, I totally take your point about the fact that we've covered some of the downsides kind of in the context of the book. It's really addressing those downsides so that you are aware and prepared. And when you've got the coping strategies, you can do things better and avoid the mistakes, and then you can get that enjoyment and that fulfilment from self-employment. So a lot of the things I cover are to do with recognising the opportunities that are out there to work with perhaps people who really inspire you, and really to focus on doing that fulfilling work and the stuff that gets you leaping out of bed in the morning eager to start work. So yeah, I would say for me personally, I still love the flexibility.

(25:14):
I don't work Fridays. I will get up in the morning quite early. I'll walk to my gym, so I get fresh air and exercise, and then I'll work from my gym for a couple of hours, and then I'll take a break and go and do some exercise because that's how I, at my most productive, I'm in a busy buzzy environment. I've got fast wifi, nice coffee, people around me, and then I need the exercise for my own mental health to kind of keep me most productive and most inspired. With a freelancer, you could kind of go, okay, right, I'm going to take the dog out. You could go and get on your mountain bike and go out for an hour and then come back to it and kind of finish off later. And when you've had that burst of fresh air and energising exercise, those endorphins are flowing around your body.

(26:09):
You've got the kind of fresh air and you've had that breakaway from your desk. You can come back to what you're doing with this renewed energy and inspiration. So flexibility, once you are taking back control and avoiding those things that we talked about early on where we are letting multiple clients set the terms of the way we work and the hours that we work make it work for you. And that's wonderful for me. Another thing that I absolutely love is I get to work with just such lovely people. And another thing that I talk about in the book is the not being afraid to say no to the wrong kind of work and the wrong kind of clients. And certainly the reason that I do that is because I want to work with people who inspire me to do my best work. If I'm working for somebody and I'm just really not interested in their business, that's going to come through in the work that I deliver, and that's going to have a knock on effect because that client will not write me a glowing review.

(27:10):
They will not necessarily refer me to their colleagues. So if you can kind of create this little circle of loveliness, can't think of a better word for it off the top of my head, but if you can work for people who really inspire you and who give you what I call 'the goosebump moments', when I have a discovery call with a client, I always know if it's somebody that I want to work with, because I get the goosebump moments when they're talking about what they do and why they do it. Yeah. I mean, that is just so inspiring. So also, I get to charge good money for what I do. And so there's three really good positives right there.

Kiran Kapur (27:51):
That's fabulous. And I love the idea of 'goosebump moments'. I know exactly what you mean. Sarah Townsend and her book is Survival Skills for Freelancers. Sarah, thank you so much for your time. That was really useful.

Sarah Townsend (28:06):
Oh, it's lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much for having me on, Kiran.