Interview Summary

The interview featured Alexis Drake from Reed Talent Solutions, who discussed the concept and importance of an employer brand. She explained that an employer brand was distinct from a company's parent brand, as it specifically focused on attracting and retaining staff by honestly portraying the lived experience of working at the company. Drake argued that a strong, truthful employer brand should not only attract the right candidates but also actively repel unsuitable ones, thereby saving companies the significant cost of a bad hire. She critiqued generic, "beige" recruitment advertising and advocated for unique, authentic messaging, highlighting the power of employee-generated content over polished corporate campaigns. The conversation also touched upon the current state of the UK job market and the personal story behind her "furious ostrich" brand mascot.

 

Key Points

  • An employer brand was defined as a niche subsection of a parent brand focused entirely on attracting and retaining staff by telling the true story of what it was like to work there.
  • A key function of a strong employer brand was to repel unsuitable candidates, which helped filter the high volume of applications many companies received and avoided the approximate £35,000 cost of a bad hire.
  • Many companies used generic, "beige" language in job ads (e.g., "passionate," "dynamic"), which attracted too many applicants and failed to differentiate them.
  • A company's employer brand already existed on platforms like Glassdoor; her role was to help employers see it, identify gaps between their desired and actual perception, and then work to close those gaps.
  • The Employee Value Proposition (EVP) encompassed both tangible benefits like salary and intangible elements like company culture, support, and development opportunities, which appealed to different types of employee motivations.
  • Employee-generated content was presented as far more credible and effective than scripted, CEO-led campaigns because it was more believable to potential candidates.
  • The post-COVID job market had shifted, with more people looking for work than available positions in many white-collar sectors, making effective candidate filtering even more critical.

 

Interview Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated.

Kiran Kapur (00:01):
Hello and welcome this week. We are in the exciting world of employer brands and we will explore what that means a little further with my guest, Alexis Drake from Reed Talent Solutions.

Alexis Drake (00:12):
To give you an idea, apparently a bad hire costs the company about £35,000, and that's in wasted time, wasted effort and advertising costs. So it's absolutely crucial for an employer to get it right and to say what the truth really is.

Kiran Kapur (00:27):
Alexis, you have the most wonderful comments on your LinkedIn profile that you are an unbeiging recruitment, which I just think is fantastic, and that you are an employer brand disruptor. So let's start with what you mean by an employer brand.

Alexis Drake (00:41):
Okay, so employer brand is definitely distinct from a company's parent brand. So the parent brand is all about the story. That product or that service is the value that they're giving to customers, or what they're just delivering essentially. But employer brand is kind of a sub-section of that. It's a more niche. Part of that employer brand is all about how they can attract and retain staff. So it's definitely very linked with recruitment, hence me obviously working for Reed Talent Solutions. And that's the kind of thing that I help companies with. It's really articulate their story as an employer, and to lift the lid on what it's like working there and to manage any, let's say 'do gaps'. So sometimes a company likes to put their best foot forward, they like to present a very glossy version of the truth, and I'm all about unpacking that and getting to what the truth really is.

Kiran Kapur (01:37):
Oh, so okay, there's so much in there. So why is an employer brand different from the overall parent brand? Because normally when we're teaching branding or we think about branding, we think about the brand, which could be a consumer brand or a business brand or whatever, but we just think about one overarching overall brand. But you are suggesting that there is a different or a subset of that brand.

Alexis Drake (02:00):
Yeah, exactly. So the employer part is very intrinsically linked with recruitment or retention. So it's about the lived experience of people who work there, and it's also used to attract people who want to work there. But crucially, and I think this is where I'm a bit of a disruptor in the market, it can be used to repel. So one of the things we're seeing in the recruitment market at the moment is that there are far too many candidates for most jobs, most jobs, not all of them. And what companies are really struggling with is actually how to filter all of the cvs, all of the applications that are coming to them. And the problem is when they go to market with very generic job ads or just a very kind of homogenous look and feel about their career sites, or about how they show up on LinkedIn in their advertising, then they are in danger of attracting everyone. And it's not about attracting everyone, it's about attracting the right one.

Kiran Kapur (02:58):
I think that's such an interesting point. We've just gone through a recruitment process at the college, and I was quite stunned by the amount of responses that we had, and maybe that's exactly the mistake that we made. So yes, I think you do see an awful lot of generic recruitment ads. I get very bored of the ones that want people to be passionate and energetic. By the time I've read three ones that want me to be energetic, I usually need to lie down

Alexis Drake (03:25):
And dynamic.

Kiran Kapur (03:27):
And these are weasel words. They don't mean anything.

Alexis Drake (03:31):
They don't mean anything at all. In fact, one of the best employer brand advertising campaigns I ever saw was from a really interesting agency in Manchester. Sadly, they don't exist anymore. They put out some amazing adverts in Manchester about how the jobs weren't for everyone, and that actually if they were rubbish, they definitely wouldn't hire them. So I did that in a presentation recently. I can't say it because they use swear words, but it was just a really interesting way of using advertising as a filter. And funnily enough, that agency was called Disrupt. So

Kiran Kapur (04:05):
How do you go about advising employers to find their employer brand?

Alexis Drake (04:11):
So here's the thing, the employer brand already exists and it's living in places like Glassdoor where people are willingly giving their opinion on that employer, on the interview process, on the hiring process, on their experiences of working there now. So you get a lot of people who are comfortable and happy where they work, and they will leave a review. And then you also get people who kind of leave their exit interviews on Glassdoor, which is controversial, but sometimes it's the only way people can get their perspective out there to almost warn other people. So what I often say to my clients is that actually your EVP, your employee value proposition or employer brand, it already exists. What I try to do is go in there and unearth that and almost help the employer see it for what it really is. Then, what we do is figure out if there are any gaps. So is there a gap between how that employer wants to be seen and how they're actually viewed? And then that's where the consulting part comes in. So whether it's improving pay and salary benchmarking, whether it's looking at different types of benefits to attract different people or whether it's down to things like dodgy line management that needs to be sorted out for their existing people. So whatever it is, I come in there almost like an organisational psychologist, and help to uncover what's really going on and then how to make it better.

Kiran Kapur (05:37):
Dodgy line management, surely that never happens. Okay, so you called it an employee value proposition, and I find this fascinating because you're taking branding theory but applying it slightly differently. Obviously we'd normally talk about a customer value proposition. So what does an employee value proposition encompass?

Alexis Drake (05:55):
Well, it's kind of to do with the things I just mentioned. So it's not just about benefits and salary. There are lots of other things that would make someone happy to be at work, depending on their motivations. So you have people who are intrinsically motivated. These people tend to be all about the money, they're all about the bonuses, the car scheme, they're kind of tangible, the commercial side of work. And then you've got people who are extrinsically motivated. So I definitely put myself in this camp, although money would be great, but it's the intangible stuff. It's the culture, how do you feel? Are you supported? Are you able to develop your skills, your education? It's that kind of stuff. There's the touchy feely things more difficult to measure, but very, very crucial for some people.

Kiran Kapur (06:47):
And so does the employer think about whether, because I was listening to somebody talking about, oh, we have a very inclusive culture, but we like everybody to get together and socialise. And I was thinking, not my company, I don't mind being very sociable at work, but actually my evenings are my own thank you very much. Whereas for other people, that's a very different motivation. So is that what you mean by turning by repelling people because they need to repel me because I would be uncomfortable in that work environment? Is that what you're getting at?

Alexis Drake (07:15):
Yeah, exactly. So to give you an idea, and I can't give you the origin of this stat, but apparently a bad hire costs the company about £35,000 and that's in wasted time, wasted effort and advertising costs. So it's absolutely crucial for an employer to get it right and to say what the truth really is. So actually, if a company isn't sociable and everyone leaves at 4:30 and no one has an appetite for getting to know each other and everyone's remote, that's the kind of thing they need to be putting in their adverts because that's the truth. And it will a hundred percent repel an extrovert who needs to be with people, who needs to be going out, having drinks after work or whatever. So yeah, it is super important to get it right as it is with any brand trying to attract the right customer to sell the right product. It's just basic marketing, isn't it really?

Kiran Kapur (08:05):
So I know you're very keen about being very honest and you say that honesty works. So how is this that manifest itself? How do people, I mean surely I'm not going to write a job ever. It says come and apply to me, but not if you like socialising in the evenings. That doesn't sound like how you'd phrase it.

Alexis Drake (08:21):
True, but that's exactly what companies should be doing, so you can be humorous with it. And what I find is that the more unusual the advert is, the more interest it gets. Now that's kind of important for two reasons. One, because it raises the profile of the company anyway. If a company is willing to be a bit daring to do something a bit different, then actually they get exposure that they didn't have to really pay for anyway. But two, if someone reads that advert and they realise it's definitely not for them, then that company is not going to be completely bogged down with useless applications. So it works both ways. Yes, they have to be clever about how they write adverts, about how they put things on their careers site, about any types of social media advertising they do. And there's lots and lots of companies out there that can help with that. I too can help with that, obviously. It's about finding a company, what their voice is, how they can articulate that unique voice, because there is a lot of beige out there. So it's really important to cut through the beige.

Kiran Kapur (09:27):
So is beige when we are referring to beige in this context. So we are really talking about just corporate speak?

Alexis Drake (09:34):
Corporate speak, it is a pet hate for me, and also just things that are a bit lazy like we're hiring. I mean 'we are hiring' isn't a strategy. I see a lot of people put the entire job description as a job advert. That's the job description. That's kind of what you give someone once they're interested. What they've forgotten is the advertising piece, just the beauty of advertising, which is to sell, not to tell. So even if that selling is a bit weird or it's a bit unique or it's actually a bit, oh God, I really wouldn't want to work here. It's still selling, I dunno if you remember the Marmite adverts. I hate Marmite, I love Marmite. I mean that was groundbreaking and completely divisive, but totally memorable, wasn't it?

Kiran Kapur (10:19):
And so what if you are a company, I think you get this a lot with companies that perhaps technology companies or even professional services if you're running an accountancy firm, maybe you want to sound a little bit, grey is the wrong phrase, but a little bit more so that there's a very certain expectation of the professionalism there compared to the professionalism if you were selling a marketing agency job. So how did firms find that balance?

Alexis Drake (10:46):
And this is one that can be tricky to navigate. It's not all about being a purple flaming ostrich with opinions and gold beaks, but sometimes it is about just pushing the boundaries enough that you can be seen. So a really good example in the accounting space, it's a firm called Cooper Parry, and I would really encourage any listeners to take a look at what they do because they've taken what is normally quite very conservative corporate language space accountancy. It's all about trust, isn't it? And they've flipped it on its head and they've done something different with it, but they've still maintained their credibility. You see, the thing with brand, the thing with advertising is you can have fun and you can be a bit kooky, and you can still be credible at the same time. As long as your message is correct and it's on point, and the service or product you deliver is good.

Kiran Kapur (11:40):
And do you see as a recruitment consultant that companies that get this right do repel people that otherwise would just apply? I mean, do you see this working?

Alexis Drake (11:52):
Yeah, I see it working in practise. I think one of the best examples of this actually is with startups. So I've seen some great adverts from startups saying, we're going to be working till midnight sometimes guys, and maybe two o'clock in the morning, but you know what? We'll give you a half day off when the business starts rolling in, or we'll go out for pizza the next day or whatever. So I'm beginning to see this a bit more and more, where people are being brave with what they're saying.

Kiran Kapur (12:20):
So I know one of the other things you talk about is employee-generated information, because presumably that's because that is the most clear and honest way of showing off your employee brand.

Alexis Drake (12:34):
Yeah, exactly. Clear and honest and believable I think is the keyword here. So what I advise my clients is don't have your CEO front and centre of any campaign because people are going to think it's scripted. Obviously, they're going to be putting their best foot forward, but also they're going to be saying things that the average person doesn't really care about like the vision of the company and the 12-month plan. I mean, most people don't really care. They want to know, am I going to come here? Am I going to get persecuted because I'm a bit neuro-spicy, or can I pick up my kids in the middle of the day because it's summer holidays or whatever it is that person that individual really needs to have from work. So yeah, I definitely would say employee-generated content is the way forward. And there are some amazing companies coming through like PLOY. So shout out to Tim Grimes and his partridge. There's a lot of avian themes going on here, but PLOY is a company that actually is a platform for employees to submit their content, and then it could be sense-checked by the marketing team or whoever, and it can get out into social media really, really quickly. And that's the best way. I mean, when you come in with a camera crew and everything's staged and it all feels a bit stilted, the problem is the user at the other end isn't really going to believe it.

Kiran Kapur (13:57):
And one of the things you talk about is how to get employee. What happens I find when you ask for employee-generated content is that your extroverts, usually the marketing department, are more than comfortable to do that and they're very happy to do it. But if your company is not actually a marketing agency or not solely marketing, what you need is the back room people who may be the really key part of your organisation to also contribute. And they often are very, very nervous to do so. How do you encourage that?

Alexis Drake (14:28):
Yeah, I mean I think I said in one of my posts recently, you want Susan from finance, who's been working there for 15 years, to have her voice just as much as Jade who's joined the company in the last 3. So there's lots of different ways of getting content. Now my sweet spot is video. Video is kind of my background, and obviously people consume so much more video than they ever have. But there's also a place for things like blogs and short-form content and static social media posts where you just have a headshot and a phrase, a piece of a soundbite, a testimonial from that person. So in that way you can gather content from people who have different personalities and different appetites for putting themselves out there. And it is, as you say, very, very important to get everyone's take from across the business regardless of how they want to show up.

Kiran Kapur (15:20):
And so do you feel changing the form of the content is often an easier way to get them to engage with this?

Alexis Drake (15:27):
Exactly. It's about meeting people where they are. It's a bit like learner styles. You have a kinesthetic learner who wants to do an auditory learner, who needs to listen. So it's just about recognising that we're all different. Everyone has something good to share. It's just about finding out how you can encourage those people to share by using different methods.

Kiran Kapur (15:49):
And because I'm going to come back to the point that you said we are hiring is not a strategy. So presumably, you are doing this for a reason because I think the other problem is we often go, generate some content employees, but we don't tell them why or what for or why it matters.

Alexis Drake (16:06):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the why is very important. Although of course people won't get on board. Like any change management technique or any goal you give them, they have to understand why. So that's where the CEO or the leader can come in and say, look, we are really struggling to recruit in this area, or we've got a new business coming in and we need to start having much more people in this department. So guys, we really need everyone's best efforts at lifting the lid on what it's like working here. So when you give people context, I think they're much more likely to give you what they need.

Kiran Kapur (16:41):
Okay. There's two final questions I want to ask you. One is, I think, it would be remiss not to briefly discuss what the market is like at the moment. And obviously we're talking from the UK perspective at the moment or from an English perspective. You said that lots of jobs are getting more applicants. Is that a lack of jobs? Is that the job market at the moment or is it actually because it's corporate beige, and nobody really knows what they're applying for?

Alexis Drake (17:06):
Well, there's a couple of things that are going on, and I wouldn't want to be the expert in this. I think James Reed probably has a much better handle than I do in my small part of the world. But what I'm seeing is that the market has shifted, so say three years ago or post-COVID, there are a lot of people who are making changes in their life. So they were leaving jobs in their thousands. We'd never seen anything like it before. People were getting offered silly money compared to what they were getting paid before. So the whole thing went bonkers post-COVID. Now what we're seeing is a turn in the tide. So things have shifted, layoffs have happened. Every time I look at LinkedIn, layoffs are going on. And what that means is that there just aren't as many available positions, and there are a lot of people who are looking for work. So it's not in every sector, it's not in every job type. I mean, there are always going to be things that are really difficult to recruit for engineers, just broadly speaking. But for the average kind of white collar worker, things are really difficult right now.

Kiran Kapur (18:10):
However ,there are ways, there are jobs, and I would never like to leave people feeling depressed about things. So I have to come back to the final thing. And you did say there was an avian theme going on. Your LinkedIn profile mentions one furious ostrich. I have to ask, tell me more about the ostrich.

Alexis Drake (18:27):
Okay, so Octavia is my purple emotional support ostrich, and I would highly recommend anyone in this market to have one. So here's where my love of AI comes in. I love AI so much. I've called her Astrid, and she's my co-conspirator in all things. And Octavia, the ostrich, came about from a LinkedIn carousel that went viral-ish for me anyway, about six months ago. And I was drawing a comparison between what the private sector offered new hires, which was ridiculous stuff like frog-shaped beanbags and a laser and borrowing the company yacht at the weekend, and the notion of an emotional support ostrich came in that lineup. And it just grew legs. Well, it grew gold legs actually. And my kind of personal brand colours of purple and gold. So she became purple. And then I was thinking about the names and we thought, me and Astrid thought Octavia was just very regal and completely ridiculous for an ostrich. And also there's something underneath this. It's not just fun and friary, it's about getting a head out of the sand. And this is what I encourage my clients to do. Don't put your head in the sand, don't pretend you can't see and hear the problems that are going on in the company. Let's take your head out of the sand. Let's see what it is, what the issues are, try and make it better, and then put off best gold foot forward in terms of the marketing approach.

Kiran Kapur (19:59):
Excellent. I love that. And I do, yes, your LinkedIn profile, I have to say, is the most unbeige profile I think I have ever come across. Alexis Drake of Talent Solutions. Thank you so much for unbeiging recruitment and explaining the importance of employer brands. Thank you very much indeed.

Alexis Drake (20:19):
It's been a pleasure. Thank you.