Daryl Fielding covers six key leadership qualities: vision, courage, fierce resolve, motivational capability, humility, and operational competence, with a particular focus on why operational competence is often overlooked despite being critical to turning plans into reality. He examines how diversity in leadership styles and team composition, including the balance between visionary leaders and “doers,” can create constructive tension that improves outcomes when supported by trust and inclusion.

Daryl also highlights how language and self-positioning (e.g., saying “I’ll lead that” instead of “I’ll get that done”) can help operationally strong people be recognised as leaders, with particular attention to gendered patterns and minority coping strategies in organisations.

Key Points

  • Recognise operational competence (getting things done, structuring processes, implementation detail) as a core leadership capability in marketing teams, not just a support function.
  • Build diverse leadership teams that intentionally combine visionary, bold marketers with strong operational and motivational profiles to improve campaign execution and business outcomes.
  • Coach “doers” in marketing (e.g., project managers, campaign operators) to avoid the “negativity trap” by expressing enthusiasm first and then framing implementation challenges as solvable steps (“to get there we’ll need to…”).
  • Pay attention to gendered and minority dynamics in marketing departments, ensuring operationally focused and minority team members are seen and heard as leaders rather than relegated to service roles.
  • Use language deliberately in performance reviews and role descriptions (e.g., “lead this project,” “safe pair of hands” as a strength) and encourage team members in the literal sense of “giving courage” so they feel bold enough to contribute their diverse perspectives.

Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated.

Announcer (00:02):
The Cambridge Marketing Podcast with Kiran Kapur, brought to you by Cambridge Marketing College. See their range of courses and apprenticeships at marketingcollege.com.

Kiran Kapur, Host (00:13):
My guest today is Daryl Fielding. Daryl was a former senior level marketer at Vodafone and Mondelez and is now a portfolio director, which I think means that you go around from different companies, Daryl. Is that correct?

Daryl Fielding (00:27):
Yes, you do. You do lots of part-time jobs basically.

Kiran Kapur, Host (00:30):
Sounds wonderful. So thank you for coming on the show. And we were going to talk about the different styles of leadership, because I know this is something that you are quite passionate about.

Daryl Fielding (00:40):
Yes. And it connects incredibly well with something that's a very popular subject of discourse at the moment, which is diversity. And that's often done in the context of gender and ethnicity and even more sort of new neurodiversity. But I think when you're talking about a leadership team, you do need a diverse range of qualities, which is really, really important. And because inevitably you won't get every leadership quality invested in one human being, the mix of those qualities in a leadership team is hugely important.

Kiran Kapur, Host (01:21):
So when we're talking about qualities of leadership, what are you referring to?

Daryl Fielding (01:25):
Well, I define those as six key qualities, having read quite widely on the subject. I think it distils down to six things. I think inevitably you need somebody with a vision or a plan, something that's to be done. There's a lot of discussion around sort of bravery, courage. You need somebody who's bold. You need that determination. I think the good to great authors described it as fierce resolve, but you also need a great deal of motivational capability. Leading is about bringing others with you. And you also need two things, and I know we're going to focus on one of these that is often not so widely identified as a leadership capability. One of those is humility. And I don't mean that sort of, "Oh, it was all everybody else." It's not that sort of modesty. It's also the genuine belief that you don't have all the answers as a leader, that there are other people that are experts and you have the curiosity and humility to go and find out stuff about whatever it is that you're leading.

(02:38):
And I think humility is very much a quality that isn't talked about very much. But the on that I believe is massively overlooked and the one that we're going to talk about today is operational competence. And so that's the six qualities, vision, courage, fierce resolve, motivational capability, humility and operational competence. And if you sort of cluster those, there's what I would call the heroic narratives of leadership, which tend to be about the vision, the courage and the determination. But there's also those real enabling qualities that without that, nothing would actually happen. And those are bringing others with you, the motivational capability, the humility and the operational competence. And it's really that last one that I think is particularly interesting and that I thought we could talk about a little more today.

Kiran Kapur, Host (03:36):
Because I think there is an assumption that leaders lead and other people do the implementing. But is that operational competence the ability to implement plans and ideas?

Daryl Fielding (03:49):
Absolutely. And I believe that better outcomes would result if that capability is also at the top table amongst the leadership team. And it often isn't, but it should be because the ability to actually put a plan or a vision into practise and to understand how that's to be done and almost how the operational aspect might even modify that plan or vision is super important. And I do think that better leaders will have by their side someone that can really, really get the stuff done. I think we're living through a very good example of that at the moment, which is the vaccination programme in the UK. We have managed to do that with a great deal of operational competence. I don't really understand the leadership dynamics of what has happened with that, but it is a perfect example of where that has made a huge difference to the vision or the plan of vaccinating the whole population of a country.

(04:56):
So I think if those two things are sort of buddied up more tightly, then the result will be better.

Kiran Kapur, Host (05:04):
So why do you think operational leadership, which on the face of it would seem very obvious that you have somebody who has the ideas and you have somebody that actually makes those ideas happen. Why do you think it is overlooked?

Daryl Fielding (05:18):
Difficult to tell. I sometimes think that those individuals who have that capability don't always present it in an incredibly positive way. I happen to be married to somebody who's a very good getter of stuff done. And if I have an idea that we're going to do something, he'll often sort of scowl and go, "Well, the trouble with that is... " And I immediately think he doesn't want to go on holiday or do the garden or whatever we're proposing. So I sometimes think that the way that that is positioned by the individuals that are good at it and also within the organisation itself are not helpful. And something that I was going to conclude this talk with, but we can talk about it now is if you're one of the good doers of the world, how do you get acknowledged as a leader? One of those things is to claim the operational part as a leadership activity.

(06:17):
But secondly, to avoid what I call the negativity trap, because I think so often one immediately leaps to how we're going to get it done without acknowledging your buy-in and enthusiasm for the vision or the plan. And I think if you reframe the discourse from the problem with that is, or that'll be tricky because to get there we'll need to, or there are going to be some hurdles, but we can overcome them in this way. So I think it's being you're not minded to be sort of emotional and enthusiastic. You're minded to be more problem solving and practical. And I think the presentation of that can genuinely get in the way of being adopted by the visionary leaders who think you're just sort of being difficult a lot of the time.

Kiran Kapur, Host (07:10):
Yes. I think that view of being difficult is quite strong. It's certainly the one I've come across in the past where people haven't wanted somebody in on a discussion because they'll just find the problems. So instead we'll come out with a plan.

Daryl Fielding (07:24):
I hear that again and again and again. I've done this talk before. I hear it from so many people who say, "I get accused of being difficult." And I think it's a presentational issue. I think one can easily just start every sentence with, "That's a brilliant idea. It's not that hard to say and smile." I think that acknowledging your enthusiasm for what is to happen before you start to figure out how it's to be done. And I think of course, if you are the visionary leader, very often it is quite scary because you haven't fully formed the notion of everything. You've got an idea. And so if you are a succesful visionary leader, you will have learned over the years to sort of crush opposition because that's the only way you would've got your vision ever to happen. So I think you're particularly sensitive to the notion of individuals trying to kibosh what you think is a great idea or a great plan.

(08:37):
So I think maybe over egging the enthusiasm if you're the doer would go down very well and then you'd have a fantastic partnership.

Kiran Kapur, Host (08:46):
Yes. I think sometimes the doers are actually, they're just mulling over the problem, but what's coming out of their mouths is, "Oh, that's going to be difficult because. "

Daryl Fielding (08:53):
Yes, exactly. I think what the leader is hearing is, "I'm going to try and block you. " And that's not what you're saying as a doer. You're basically figuring out how to do it. But if you just try and articulate that... And I think there is a slight gender divide. I have to be honest. I tend to find the phrase she's just a good doer more frequently heard than he's just a good doer. It'd be interesting to do some proper research on that. But I think that many times the women in a team are the ones that often have the sort of operational roles. So again, I think that is something that they need to own better is the fact that it is a leadership role. And it was interesting, it never occurred to me. I had a light bulb moment with this when I was at Mondelez because we were doing a global re-pitch for the Milker brand, which was a $2 billion brand.

(09:56):
It was huge and we were choosing a new agency and I was in charge of that selection process. And so I just thought, "Well, what are we going to do? How are we going to do it? " And I sent a note to everybody, all the stakeholders to say, "This is what I'm going to do. This is how it's going to happen." And I got a reply from the president of the chocolate category to say, "Thank you for your leadership on this. " And I'm like, "Well, that's not leadership. I'm just getting it done." And then I thought, "Oh, actually it is leadership. Figuring out how you get a team to do something is definitely leadership." And that was really when I realised that one doesn't often claim that capability as a leadership enterprise. And so if you are one of the doers, instead of saying, "I'll get that done," try saying, "I'll lead that.

(10:49):
I'll lead that project." Just reframe that narrative as a leadership capability because it absolutely is. And if the good doers of this world don't think they're leading, then they're not going to be given that credit, are they?

Kiran Kapur, Host (11:04):
That's interesting. It was also, as you said, it was possibly gendered. I think we describe things differently. The women are often the doers and the men are described as a safe pair of hands.

Daryl Fielding (11:19):
Interesting. I think I've heard safe pair of hands on both sides and it's always a bit pejorative, isn't it? And it shouldn't be really. It's an interesting one. Somebody who's solid, you'd really want that in a crisis, would you not?

Kiran Kapur, Host (11:37):
It seems to have overturns of wicket keepers to me. They're a safe pair of hands. They can be guaranteed to sort of catch the ball.

Daryl Fielding (11:43):
Yes. I'm sorry, but sporting metaphors are always rather locked on me. I'm one of the least sporty people I know. So yes, I suppose

Kiran Kapur, Host (11:52):
So. I can only do cricket. I can't do it. I can't

Daryl Fielding (11:54):
Do it. Okay. Well, that's a whole other language. It's all about the backward leg before tea and I'm like, no idea what they're talking about.

Kiran Kapur, Host (12:04):
Playing something with a straight bat. Yes. Okay. So operational leadership, I can see that it's seen as something perhaps an assistant does. They come along with the idea and they make it happen. So one of the things you're saying is rephrase the way you describe it. Now, presumably that works both ways. So the operational leader themselves uses phrases like, "I'll lead that. " But is it also up to other people displaying other leadership styles to acknowledge how important that role is?

Daryl Fielding (12:37):
Absolutely. And actually, I think one of the things, if you are the leader, let's say you are the chief executive or you're leading a team. The composition of your team is super important. You'd have to be a pretty ego driven person, wouldn't you, to say, "I have all of those six leadership strengths in equal measure." If you are a leader, you ought to be aware of your weak spots. Or if you're a good leader, you ought to be aware of your weak spots and your strengths. And actually, if you are the visionary bold leader, you should have the good sense to go, "I'm going to need around me people who maybe have these other qualities that we're going to need in this team." And that you should include people with that operational competence and you should also include people with great motivational ability. I'm not somebody who is a lot of fun when I'm getting things done.

(13:39):
I'm incredibly driven and I'm really determined. But often what I've had to do in my leadership teams is appoint somebody as the minister of fun and to create a bit more of a joyful atmosphere. And I think acknowledging that there are certain qualities that maybe you lack as a leader and that you need to bring in. And people talk a lot about, oh, inclusive leadership. And what does that mean? Well, that means having people around you that are not like you. And that's, as we talked about the whole diversity agenda, that is about all sorts of things, but it's about having people who are not like you. And people who are not like you with some strength of character arguably are going to create certain frustrations and tensions. And the ability of really great leaders, I believe, is to foster dissent, constructive dissent, to encourage that, to include people who are different, to get them to bring that difference to the table, and then to bind it all together into an action plan and drive to decisions and then action.

(14:51):
And so I think when people talk about diversity and inclusion, it's a little bit more of a sort of happy, clappy ideology rather than the reality, which is that you're going to have to surround yourself with people who are not exactly like you. And when they bring that with some vigour that that might be challenging, but that is a good thing. And so my husband pouting when I suggest that we're about to do some sort of remodelling of the garden, I have to accept that that is a good thing and that debate that we have about how that's to be done will make a better outcome in the end. So I do believe that diversity and inclusion is a sort of bit of a tougher gig actually than people imagine, but the value of it is so phenomenal when it works really, really well.

Kiran Kapur, Host (15:44):
I think that's the key bit, isn't it? It's very easy to say it sounds pink of fluffy and it's something we talk about and we say, yes, we should be diverse. But actually on a day-to-day basis that can be quite uncomfortable because you are dealing with different values and different ways of dealing with things and different motivations and all sorts of other things. It can be an uncomfortable place to be.

Daryl Fielding (16:08):
Absolutely. And that's where a really, really good leader will start to build that team in a way that they trust each other, that they respect and comprehend each other's unique capabilities that add value. And because they trust each other and because they're clear about goals and tasks and what they're trying to achieve together, that dissent becomes incredibly constructive and valued. But yes, it does feel a little uncomfortable. I'm a huge fan of Patrick Lencioni's book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. I would absolutely recommend it as really, really good reading for anyone listening because it makes sense of diversity to me and what it means and why when it works, it works. Inclusion is not about having everyone feel comfortable. I think everyone should bring their best self, but that does inevitably difference, which is what diversity means, means there's going to be disagreement. So that is going to get tricky, but the more you like and trust each other, the better that gets.

(17:28):
And building those teams and building that trust and understanding as a sort of fundamental underpinning of any successful team I think is massively important. And that really is what a really great leader will do is build a fabulous team around them.

Kiran Kapur, Host (17:46):
So one of the things I was interested, you did a talk a couple of years back about the three coping strategies that people who are diverse often use, one of which can be to become invisible. Another one is to just assimilate. So in fact, they then don't bring their diversity into the workplace.

Daryl Fielding (18:06):
Exactly. And that is something that's been found in the study in anthropology of minority groups with a dominant majority. So this magic 30% is actually the proportion of the minority with a dominant majority that in anthropology is at a scale that will enable its values to be acknowledged and recognised by the dominant majority. So there's some anthropological basis in this magic 30%. But at less than that scale in those circumstances where you've got a dominant majority, there are several coping strategies you can become invisible, which I generally say is not the way to get yourself promoted in an organisation.

(18:57):
You can assimilate. And I grew up in an age where in business men were a dominant majority and becoming one of the boys was a reasonable strategy to assimilate and become one of the boys. And if you talk about leaders perhaps from a generation ahead of me, Margaret Thatcher, for example, was deemed to be very, very tough and hard and sort of even more male than a lot of the male politicians. And I think women at that generation really had no choice because there were so few of them that a successful strategy was to assimilate. And then the other strategy that does get adopted in anthropology is that you serve that majority. And I've seen that in organisations as well and particularly around gender. You very often find, let's say, women in the softer roles in an organisation where they are in the functions rather than in the business units.

(20:07):
And I think that is not necessarily a particularly helpful pattern. But I think the risk with this operational capability is that it can very easily get sort of put into that role where you end up serving the visionary leaders and not really having as much impact on the whole leadership agenda as you should. And I think the outcomes will be worse. So I think there is a risk that the operational people end up in this sort of service role in organisations and a really good leader would recognise the value that they bring and prevent that from happening.

(20:51):
When you are in an organisation where you have got minorities in the team of any kind, I think you have to be really cognizant of what it's like to be that minority and to make sure that their voice is heard and that they're encouraged in the best sense of that word encouraged given space and emboldened. I had a very female team when I was at Mondelez and we had a meeting one day and the one guy in my leadership team took me aside afterwards and said to me, "Daryl, I hated that meeting." And I'm like, "Why? I thought it was great." And he said, "No, no, no. It was really bitchy." And I come from a family where I've got all sisters, I'm sort of used to women, but that meeting made me feel really uncomfortable. Now what was interesting was first of all, that he felt that he could tell me that, which I was really grateful for.

(21:52):
Secondly, I was willing to listen and go, "Oh my God, what did we do? " Not sort of grow a pair, you've got to get used to it kind of thing. Goodness me, what did we do wrong? How did we make you feel that way? That's not what I want to happen. And that I hadn't even noticed. And I think that's super important to acknowledge. A, if you're a leader, you may not be aware of your own normal, your own sort of norms. And I didn't notice. So if you are a leader, I think you have to be hyper aware of the norms of the behaviour if you're in a dominant majority. And secondly, make people feel comfortable enough to tell you if you make them feel left out because that's what we've done. So I think it's a difficult one to navigate and I think you have to be quite sensitive to that.

(22:46):
But I was so pleased that I had at least created an environment where somebody trusted me enough to come and tell me afterwards. Now, what I probably should have done better is to invite that input. But I think first of all, when people get cross about this topic, I say, first of all, just assume to start with that dominant majority that you're dealing with hasn't noticed their behaviour because it may be that if they did and somebody mentioned it to them that they might be willing to change. So before you get angry, assume innocence of the problem.

Kiran Kapur, Host (23:25):
I thought you used a very interesting phrase where you said encourage in the correct use of that word. So can you just explain a bit more about that?

Daryl Fielding (23:36):
Well, I don't know if it's the correct use of the word or not. I think I just like the notion that you're actually giving people that boldness, that encourage isn't that sort of patronising pat on the head, but it's actually making people feel brave. And I just like that sense of the word really.

Kiran Kapur, Host (23:58):
So literally giving courage.

Daryl Fielding (24:00):
Yeah, literally creating courage in that person.

Kiran Kapur, Host (24:05):
I think we've covered quite a lot about the use of words and how little things like saying, "I'll lead that, " can make a massive difference to the way somebody is perceived.

Daryl Fielding (24:16):
Marketing yourself as a leader would be sort of, you'd hope you'd figure that out really.

Kiran Kapur, Host (24:24):
Sometimes, as you say, it needs to be pointed out because you don't realise your own norms and the words that you use. So sometimes having somebody else go, "No, if you just use that phrase, that will make a huge difference."

Daryl Fielding (24:34):
May I make one other suggestion as sort of post-podcast reading for your listeners? Go onto Wikipedia and look at Scott versus Amundson trip to the Antarctic and you will see the triumph of operational leadership in the Danish team versus the Scott of the Antarctic Expedition. It is an absolute classic story of where you had every element of vision, courage and fierce resolve. You had all of those, if you like, those heroic qualities in both teams. But the one that got there and nobody died had all the other qualities as well. So I would love it if people would read the five dysfunctions of the team and the Wikipedia account of Scott versus Amonson Trip to the Polls.

Kiran Kapur, Host (25:32):
That sounds absolutely brilliant. Daryl Fielding, thank you very much for your time.

Daryl Fielding (25:37):
You're super welcome. I enjoyed it.