Confidence Skills for Better Communication

Podcast Summary: Confidence Skills for Better Communication

The podcast featured Jon Torrens, a communications coach specialising in helping introverts and neurodivergent people. He discussed his background in video games and stand-up comedy, which led him to his current specialisation after realising he was neurodivergent himself. The main topics included the idea that confidence is a learnable skill, not an innate trait, and the importance of a "confident mindset" built on self-acceptance. Torrens contrasted the communication styles of introverts and extroverts, highlighting the strength introverts have in preparation. He provided practical advice on silencing one's inner critic, embracing one's unique personality or "weirdness" to connect with others, and using strategic pauses to control a room and add impact. The conversation concluded with three key tips for effective communication in meetings: making a strong first impression, interacting with others, and finishing strongly.

Key Points

• Confidence was described not as an innate gift but as a "muscle" that can be developed and strengthened through practice and experience.
• Introverts can be highly effective communicators, often more so than extroverts, because they tend to value and excel at thorough preparation.
• Developing a confident mindset involves long-term self-acceptance of one's flaws and strengths, and actively getting more speaking experience.
• Thorough preparation was emphasised as key to confidence, including understanding the purpose of an interaction, the audience, and becoming comfortable with the physical space and technology beforehand.
• Embracing one's "weirdness" and being a flawed, human speaker was presented as more effective for connecting with an audience than trying to be a perfect, flawless presenter.
• Silencing the inner critic involved identifying it, belittling it, and recalling past instances where one successfully overcame similar feelings of doubt.
• Strategic pauses were highlighted as a powerful tool to command attention, emphasise a point, and calmly deflate aggressive or challenging comments.
• Three key tips for meetings were to start strong by being the first to speak, to interact by asking questions and listening, and to finish strongly with a clear summary and call to action.

Podcast Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated.

Kiran Kapur, Host (00:01):
Hello and welcome. This week we are in the world of communications and I'm absolutely delighted to welcome Jon Torrens, who's a communications coach, but specifically he specialises in helping introverts and neurodivergent people speak with confidence.

Jon Torrens (00:15):
A lot of the time, what I do is a little bit like being a personal trainer. People ask me to help them with speaking confidence, and I tell them all the things that they already know, but I make them do it. Creating great material, practising their delivery and the mindset of confidence.

Kiran Kapur, Host (00:27):
Jon, welcome. It's a huge pleasure to have you. I'm looking forward to niche sci-fi references because I understand that's something that you can specialise in. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and why specifically communications to introverts and neurodivergent people?

Jon Torrens (00:43):
Right. Well, my background involves video games and stand-up comedy. And it was only relatively recently that I realised that I was neurodivergent. I always knew there was some issue with storing information. So classical academic education was always going to be an issue. And so I realised that actually there are tonnes of people just like me who encounter a dreadful problem of being able to speak with confidence, stand up in front of a group of people. And so I thought, why not focus on people who are just like me because I'm probably one of the best equipped people to help them.

Kiran Kapur, Host (01:20):
I think that's great. And we all assume that extroverts are going to be naturally better communicators. And I don't think that's true.

Jon Torrens (01:27):
Yeah, I think there's certainly that assumption. And just to be clear, for a long time I thought I was an extrovert because I've always enjoyed showing off and being the centre of attention, even whilst being very shy in certain moments. And it was the definition I learned from, I think it was Catherine Veed, who said that it's how you recharge. And so I thought, oh, well, introverted people are quiet and extroverted are loud, so I must be an extrovert, but actually, it's where you get your energy from mostly. And we don't 100% fit into one or the other. I tend to be mostly introvert. I feel like I've learned how to do extrovert stuff. But the tiny percentage of people I've worked with who have been extroverts, because most of the time they're introverts, the extroverts tend to, they enjoy the winging it. They enjoy the interaction and generally that works, but they don't, and this is just very broadly, but they don't think that preparation is particularly important because they've had that magic moment where they improvised and it worked.

(02:30):
Introverts, on the other hand, love the preparation and getting everything ready. And I think introverts generally can be just as interesting, if not more interesting than extroverts, because there's so much there to unpack and so many interesting different aspects to their personality.

Kiran Kapur, Host (02:46):
I'm very intrigued. Chris, you talk about you help people to speak with confidence. Can you actually learn confidence? Is that possible?

Jon Torrens (02:53):
Absolutely. And I think it's a mistake to think that this person is blessed with confidence and that you will never be confident. I think it's a muscle. It needs to be developed, strengthened, built, and it's something that you ... I think we start off with confidence. I think as young children, we have confidence, and then there's something that diminishes it. So for me, it was doing badly at school, some perception about how you look. And I think it can be very gently beaten out of you by education and adults who have influence on you, that perhaps they don't realise. And so it's diminished. And so you have to rebuild it. And I mean, let's say very broadly in the United States, if you go to a, let's say a 10-year-old and point a microphone in their face and say, "Hey, what do you think of this thing?" I think very broadly you'll get a great reaction.

(03:49):
In this country, not so much. And I think it's the way that we encourage our children and give them those experiences where they feel more confident. But it is certainly something that you can learn and develop. And that's what I help people do in terms of creating great material, practising their delivery, and the mindset of confidence.

Kiran Kapur, Host (04:08):
So what's a confident mindset? Because I mean, we've all heard about practising beforehand, and I tell my students to practise that each presentation up to 10 times, and they hate me for it, but it works. But how do you have the mindset?

Jon Torrens (04:22):
There's the long-term goal, I think, of self-acceptance, which is possibly the biggest one. That's something I'm still working on for me. And it's accepting all your flaws and all of your strengths. I think a very British thing is we tend to reject the idea that we're good at something.

(04:41):
So embracing that and accepting, yes, here's the thing that I struggle with, and it can be very useful to say it out loud and to declare it. It doesn't have to be to anyone in particular, typically to yourself is good. Declaring that you have a weakness at floor and that's fine. Accepting your strengths, "Oh, I'm good at this thing. I enjoy doing this thing." That is one of the key ways to build it. And also, and this is a very simple, straightforward thing, it's just getting as much experience as possible. It's actually taking that plunge, which I appreciate, is not a good silver bullet, right? It's just not what people want to hear. A lot of the time, what I do is a little bit like being a personal trainer. People ask me to help them with speaking confidence, and I tell them all the things that they already know, but I make them do it.

(05:28):
So that's very effective.

Kiran Kapur, Host (05:31):
So you talk on your website, you say that we have a clarity problem when we're communicating. And I thought that was really interesting because that doesn't tend to be the thing that we concentrate on. So what do you mean by that?

Jon Torrens (05:44):
Very broadly. I think companies put in the work to employ great people. They have great talent. They're paying them a decent amount of money, but then those individuals don't speak up when it matters. So they will overthink it, they will hesitate, they will get talked over. So the loudest voice and the loudest idea wins. And as we know, the loudest idea sometimes isn't the best one. Often it's quite the opposite. And so it's giving people that structure so that they can actually speak under pressure, prepare correctly, and ensure that that talent is noticed and those capabilities are seen when it matters most.

Kiran Kapur, Host (06:26):
I think that's really interesting because often when we talk about communicating, we're thinking about people standing on their feet and doing a presentation. But you've just described being in that meeting, and we've all been in that meeting where you're sitting there doing that phishing impression going, "I want to get my ... And I can't get in. " And then it's talked over or, and I think all women will have experienced this. You say it, and then somebody else says it again, and everyone goes, "Great idea." And you think, "I just said that. " So you're talking about that sort of communication situation, aren't you?

Jon Torrens (06:57):
Yes. Well, that's the most exciting moment. I think presentation skills are very popular. Everyone wants to learn that, stand up in front of people and be persuasive. And so I think there's the issue of pitching as well. So a meeting will be one thing, but a pitch that persuades and lands the gig and gets the investment is the other. But certainly, yeah, if you're not heard, then there's no point in you being there.

Kiran Kapur, Host (07:21):
And so what can people do to help them be heard?

Jon Torrens (07:25):
Well, that's the magic source, isn't it? That's what I can give you. I think preparation is key. And again, that might seem like an obvious thing, but it's being ready. It's knowing the purpose. Let's say it's a meeting. So it's the purpose of the meeting. Who's going to be in there? Even how long it is, what everyone's experience is, what you want to get out of it, what are the key points? So it's basically treating it like a spy, and whether it's a meeting or a pitch or presentation, getting comfortable with the physical space. I think getting in there beforehand and just, and this might seem like it's too much, but I think it's perfect to get in there and just understand where are people going to be sitting? Where will they be standing? If I'm going to speak, where will I be? Being comfortable with all of those things so that nothing takes you by surprise.

(08:13):
Technical challenges are another big one. If you're using slides, then goodness knows all kinds of things can go wrong. So, encountering all those problems and getting used to them beforehand is brilliant. So nothing gets in the way, and being comfortable with that physical space. So on the day when it happens, even if it's a meeting that's happening in half an hour's time or big keynote that's happening the day after, when it comes to that moment, you are familiar with it and therefore you'll be a little bit more relaxed, and you'll just look more confident.

Kiran Kapur, Host (08:41):
I have to say, having actually spoken in front of you last week, because I was presenting at the Marketing Meetup that you were hosting, you are the first host I've ever been to who insisted that I had to be there an hour beforehand and run through the whole presentation every single slide. But it made a massive difference to that moment when you walk on stage, and I do do it all the time, and you're looking at breathing human beings and going, "Ah, and now I've got to start." So yes, I think you're right. Preparation really is key, but I've never been asked to prep quite that far before.

Jon Torrens (09:11):
Yes. And you'll remember on that particular scenario, we were going to do a little switchover with the laptops, and I could just see my instinct just told me immediately, "Yeah, that could take an extra 10 seconds. And in that moment, you'll just lose that momentum." So we did it lots, and it worked, and it was good fun, wasn't it?

Kiran Kapur, Host (09:27):
It was. It was great fun. So I've spent a lot of time looking at your website, and you talk about silencing your inner critic and embracing your weirdness. So I take it this is part of moving towards self-acceptance, but this has always worries me because it's a piece of advice you see regularly. Be yourself, be authentic, be authentic. What happens if my authentic self is actually quite annoying? Again, we've all been in presentations where somebody is standing in front of you, and it just sounds like they're an ego on legs. And as you think they might be being their authentic self, they're just very annoying.

Jon Torrens (10:00):
Okay. So here's the thing. So you seeing it as annoying, that might be your perception of it.

Kiran Kapur, Host (10:06):
Possibly.

Jon Torrens (10:06):
So I'd be very interested to see what the audience thinks. And you're absolutely right. Being authentic in inverted commas could be justification for some pretty terrible behaviour, right? Hey, he's just being authentic. No, he's being terrible. But the weirdness being annoying, I think that might be you thinking that. And what I would say is with the weirdness, whatever that is, so that's an obsession with something niche, like you've mentioned my sci-fi references or other things that I'm into. I think it's true that there's a possibility that you will annoy someone or turn someone off, whatever the scenario. However, I would say there'll be at least as many people, if not a lot more, who will light up at that and think, "Oh, thank God you're like me.

(10:51):
And that's it. So that's where the flawless speaker who's brilliant and you think, "Oh, they're amazing and they're funny and they're doing everything." Actually, you can be more interesting than them by being human and being flawed. Let's say the brilliant speaker's gone up there, and they've been amazing, and then you follow, or if indeed it's in a meeting, you follow, and you get something wrong, but you own it, and you go with it. I think most of the people in that audience will think, "Oh, you're a human being." And they'll connect with you more, connect with you better, and you'll see more relatable. It's like the person who reels off their amazing achievements when they're really amazing. I just think, well, I can't aspire to that. It's too much. You've done all these incredible things. But the person who's relatable and human and weird and interesting, I will connect with them more.

(11:40):
And I think owning the flaws, if you confess those and say, "Look, I had an argument with one of my kids this morning." Immediately, any other parent goes, "I'm with you. " We're exposed to time. We think, oh, don't mention that. Don't mention that the kids are in arguments. They'll doubt you, and you won't look professional. That's the thing is that we've got to be professional. But if you are a little less professional, I think you'll just connect with people because they'll just think, "Oh, you're like me."

Kiran Kapur, Host (12:03):
I think that is a very good point. Okay. You have a blog post about silencing your doubts, and I think a lot of us do walk around with a little critic on our shoulder. I was actually reflecting on this yesterday and thinking it can hit you at different times. So in my case, I'm an amateur musician. I can do a presentation with a slight inner critic. I can do, as I did last night, a duet in front of a group of people, and my inner critic is shouting in my ear much more than if it's just me on a stage. So I think we do have an inner critic. How do you silence that?

Jon Torrens (12:38):
There's one method I like, which is to name it and not necessarily calling it Brian or anything, but to identify it and say, "Oh, that's my new critic." And they get lost. To identify as just an annoying little thing and realise it's a little goblin and it's irritating and to belittle it. And the thing with that is if you keep doing that, then your brain gets used to it, and it becomes even more effective. But yeah, I had an amazing one. Back in 2022, I was at Develop, which is a games development conference. And I mean, I've got hundreds of hours of stage experience, speaking experience, and 10 minutes into my 45-minute talk, I had a crisis where I just thought, "Oh, I've blown it, " because the audience was quite quiet. And I just had this huge doubt came in, and I thought, "Oh, I've messed this up." And I got it back, but actually I'd never lost it in the first place because I watched it back and it was fine.

(13:39):
They were quiet, they were engaged, they were interested in what was going on. There were lots of talks going on there, so everyone's a little bit tired, and all I had to do was ask them a question, just interact with them. That was the magic, to interact, and then we were away, and we had laughs, and it was all fine. So I think there's identifying it, casting it aside, rejecting it, which might seem a very simple thing to say, but casting aside like that and just noticing that it's happening. I think that's the other thing. So whenever you're under pressure, noticing what's actually happening, how am I responding to this? And each time you overcome it, you can remind yourself, "Well, I got through it last time. So I remember last time I felt terrible, this thing happened, and then I got through it and I was okay." And that can become a habit, and you can remind yourself of that.

Kiran Kapur, Host (14:31):
The other thing you have, you have some great advice and sort of slightly uncomfortable advice about using pauses, and that got me really thinking about ... I mean, I think the best pause in any film is Frankenfert Rocky Horror Show when he comes in, and he uses the word anticipation.

Rock Horror Show Audio Clip (14:49):
So come up to the lab and see what's on the slab. I see you shiver with antici... pation

Kiran Kapur, Host (15:09):
That is a really powerful pause, but it's quite difficult to do. So what is the power of pauses and how do you use those?

Jon Torrens (15:19):
Right. First things first, your perception of how fast time is elapsing distorts wildly when you're under pressure, right? We know this. So when you do a pause, let's say you do a three-second pause, it will feel like twice as long probably. And therefore, you think this is weird, but honestly, it is the most amazing thing. So let's connect it to the idea of that experience of someone who's been brilliant. So let's say someone goes up before, and I've had this doing speaking gigs and doing standup comedy, somebody goes up there and they're amazing, and you think, "I can't match that. There's no way I can match it. I can't beat it. I can't match it. " Let's say someone's had lots of energy. You go up, and you wait, and you let it subside, and you smile, and you look at the audience, and you show them that you're happy, but you wait for that silence, and then you come in.

(16:07):
And that's a use of a pause. Another one would be you've got a key bit of information that you really want people to listen to. You really want to take it on board. Traditional techniques might be to really yell it and to gesture and be dramatic. Far more effective is you deliver that line, you smile, you look at the audience, and then just leave a massive pause.

(16:36):
I'm doing the pause now. It's powerful, isn't it? So in a room one-to-one, in person, I mean, that kind of thing is very, very powerful. So smiling, letting the audience see, I'm looking at you, I'm engaged with you, I'm saying absolutely nothing. It's a challenge that basically says, "Have a good think about what I've said." And the longer you can do that, the better. And then onto the next bit. And I've seen people start up, I said doing it with someone who's had a lot of energy before you, but it doesn't even have to follow that. Walk up and just wait until absolutely everyone is listening, and you look in control. That's controlling the room.That's a real power move.

Kiran Kapur, Host (17:16):
That's very interesting. And it's incredibly hard to do even as you paused then. And I knew that you were pausing, and I knew exactly ... I mean, when I got eye contact with you, I knew exactly you were pausing. Still that three seconds or whatever it was you paused for felt uncomfortable, and I was having to physically stop myself from jumping in.

Jon Torrens (17:32):
And sorry, another thing that just occurred to me as you were saying that let's say, because I like to think about the worst situations, right? Let's say someone's really challenged you in front of people and they said, "Oh, I think this is dreadful and they've been maybe quite emotional or aggressive." Our immediate response would be, "Right, I've got to come back immediately. I've got to respond quickly. I've got to dispel this because it looks bad." Honestly, if someone said, "Oh, for example, I think your work's rubbish." I think this thing you did is rubbish. If you, and this would take a lot of courage, but if you were to sit there and look at them and smile and just wait and then say, "That's interesting. Can you give me some more detail?" What a brilliant way of deflate. So you've immediately, without proving that you are of value and that your work is good, you have dismissed what they've said, but you're still being positive.

(18:24):
You're not meeting them in terms of aggression, you're not meeting them in terms of emotion and energy, you're just dispelling it. And you can see that in that scenario, you would look right. They would look wrong. Even if they're the boss and you're a junior, if you take a moment and just respond calmly, you'll look like you're right.

Kiran Kapur, Host (18:43):
And you own that moment, don't you? Because you've held pause.

Jon Torrens (18:47):
Yeah. 100%. And their original intention may have been to annoy you or make you feel bad or embarrass you, but if you simply refuse to do that, then it hasn't landed. That kind of attack or an insult only works. It only lands if you cooperate, if you participate with it. And as soon as you start shouting back, then they've got what they wanted. But if you just refuse to comply, it's powerful.

Kiran Kapur, Host (19:12):
So one of the things I wanted to comment on was your ... And it's part of your embracing your ... I hate to use the word weirdest. It's part of embracing your whole aspect. So on your website, you describe yourself as having a team, and there are three photographs, and they're all of you in different positions, doing different things. And again, it's very impactful. It's very powerful because suddenly it isn't just Jon Torrens. It's Jon Torrens as a presenter. It's Jon Torrens as a stand-up comedian. And I do want to quickly discuss that. And so, and I thought it was a really powerful way of leaning into the fact that actually it's just you, but there's you with all these facets. So, can we talk a little bit about your stand-up comedian work because I think it's so unexpected.

Jon Torrens (19:55):
Yes. Well, actually, just very quickly on that thing with the team, I was looking at lots of people's websites, and they had a team. And typically it's the three columns. It's a typical but satisfying WordPress website layer. And when it occurred to me, I could do three pictures of me. I made myself laugh. So I was chuttling, and that was the main thing. I had to do it because I was giggling like an idiot for five minutes going, "This is so clever." And I hope that other people would.

Kiran Kapur, Host (20:22):
And this is clever.

Jon Torrens (20:24):
Well, you're very kind. I can't have been the first person to think of it, but yeah, it made me laugh. So I had to do it just for that. You were asking me about standup. Sorry, I've gone on a tangent. What would you like to know about that?

Kiran Kapur, Host (20:36):
So I'm intrigued by, because it's not necessarily something one expects of a communications coach, very professional within Cambridge, but your background is standup or part of your background is standup.

Jon Torrens (20:49):
Yeah, it was just something I was drawn to. I mean, I'd done, as I mentioned, not particularly well at school. I could always stand up in front of people and speak even if I was terrified. So for example, my dad was a vicar, so I'm used to doing readings in church, and I did some dramatic things, so a little bit of acting, but just very few. And then I think I'd been to see standup. I guess I'd always like funny stuff and funny people, been to see some standup and just thought, "Oh, I could probably do that. " And I was talking to a couple of other people who I worked with, and we thought we would each try it in our own way. But the point is when your brain is wired like mine, and so assuming it's ADHD, I mean, it has all the characteristics of that and has done ever since I was very young.

(21:36):
And being an introvert, when you get that laugh, and that could be a dozen people in a little room above a pub, very quiet, but when you get that laugh, that absolute unequivocal approval from a group of strangers is highly addictive where you just think, "Oh my God, I fit in. " And so you come back, and you keep doing it. And yeah, I did it for years. I did it part-time for about 10 years and then full-time for a couple of years, and I didn't make it as a standup, but it was pretty close. And yeah, I guess I struggled with writing enough material. But also, what's interesting now, I'm looking back. So I gave up 20 years ago, almost exactly 20 years ago, I look back, and I think, "Oh, if I'd gone in there with some real arrogant level confidence, I'd have probably done pretty well and maybe made it.

(22:28):
Who knows?" So I did it full-time for a couple of years. So I've played that out. So that's good. I'm satisfied with that. There isn't an itch that needs scratching. But yeah, I look back and think it needed to be supremely confident, but to the point of really arrogant and maybe unfounded because that's how it works. So it's strange. It's like, I guess it's commitment, isn't it? If you commit fully to something, you greatly improve your chances of success, but if you hesitate, that's when you fluff it up.

Kiran Kapur, Host (22:59):
And I think we've all done that, and that's sometimes what we look back on, and we go, "Oh, why didn't I? " So it's great that you did it. Okay, so we're sort of coming to the end. So, can I ask you for sort of three top things that the audience or perhaps me can go and try next time we've got a communication? We're sitting in a ... Let's make it not necessarily a presentation. Let's make it a meeting because actually that can be ... Often that's when we are at our most impactful because we do more meetings than we tend to do presentations.

Jon Torrens (23:27):
I think the first impression is really important, and I think that's in any interaction. I think if you get that right, I think you can tip the scales in your favour. And someone told me a great one, this is not mine, but it was in a meeting, if you're the first person talking, you assert yourself as an authority. Now, that could be walking in and arranging the chairs with someone else to say, "Oh yeah, let's do this. Let's do this. " So regardless of who you are, yeah, where should we sit? Should we do that? "I don't know who's coming. "But because you are talking first, you've got authority. So I recommend doing that. Doesn't matter whether you're chairing that meeting or not, you will be heard first, and therefore you can assert yourself that way. So I recommend that as one. I've probably got more than three tips actually.

(24:13):
Well, we'll just pick three. I think that's good. So first information is really important. So that's one aspect of the first impression. The other is smiling and making eye contact. So I recommend that. Just get that first moment. I mentioned being familiar with the room, being familiar with the technology, whatever the situation is. Even if it is just a meeting and it's just you and a group of other people, just being familiar with that and engaging with people from the very beginning, looking interested, being aware of what's going on and what's making people do. I think that's really important. So get that first moment, right? Another one would be interacting with the audience. I mean, it was what saved me when things were going in a strange direction, or I thought they were, although it turns out they weren't. Just ask the audience questions and the audience could be one person or 500, right?

(25:03):
So you're chatting to someone, it's a business scenario, checking in, does this make sense? Does that fit with what you want? Or even better open with a question. We think we have to transmit perfectly. And of course, clarity is wonderful and well laid out information and using stories, that's wonderful, but actually listening to begin with can be really good. So whatever the situation is, the meeting's kicking off, what do you want to get of this meeting? Immediately, obviously that helps you because then you know what that other person is after and what they want, but it shows a bit of empathy, shows that you're interested in them. We tend to all have a little spotlight on ourselves, and we want to achieve stuff for ourselves, but being interested in other people is really good. So interaction might seem simple, but it's a great skill to develop.

(25:49):
And then the last is, probably this works chronologically anyway, is finishing, furnishing strongly. So in a pitch that's actually giving people a call to action, summing up neatly. I see plenty of people communicating, whether that's a meeting or a presentation or whatever, and it just tails off. It's gone well, and we've interacted, and that's great. And we go, "Yeah, okay." And it just fizzles out. So your audience, whoever they are, could be excited. Yes, but if you don't give them something to do, then nothing will happen. So finishing off with a nice summary is great. So, "Oh yeah, we've covered these things, so I'm going to do that, you're going to do that. " And that quote, which is, I think I mentioned this attributed to Maya Angelou, but also I think Dale Carnegie, which is people might forget what you said and what you did, but they won't forget how you made them feel.

(26:39):
That first moment, people tend to remember that. And that last one, yes, good. So we agreed then. We'll do that. I'll do that. Yeah, and let's do this. And you finish on that note, and I tend to think that's what people tend to remember. I remember when I was back in my 20s, I'd phone, so this is landline, this is pre-mobile phones, this is pre-internet. I mean, we had email, but that was about it. And I remember I would chat to people, and after, I don't know, 10, 20 minutes, if there was a big laugh, if we really had a laugh, I'd finish it there. I was, yeah, okay, I'll speak to you soon. Because I knew that's what they would remember. They'd go, "Oh yeah, I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that interaction." So yeah, if there's a nice high note, then finish with that. So yeah, start well, interact, finish strongly.

Kiran Kapur, Host (27:27):
Brilliant. And do you know, I think you are one of the first one mentioned the finishing is being so important because we tend to concentrate so much on the beginning, and you prepare the beginning, but actually you're absolutely right. The end and how you leave things is so important. So, on that positive and high note, Jon Torrens, communications coach, thank you so much. That was absolutely enlightening.

Jon Torrens (27:50):
Wonderful. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you.