Podcast Summary

This podcast features a conversation between host Kiran Kapur and guest Andy Bargery, a client director at Oyster Catchers and tutor at Cambridge Marketing College. The discussion focuses on building and maintaining effective client-agency relationships in marketing.

 

Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated.

Announcer (00:01):
This time on the Cambridge Marketing Podcast, the value of great agency relationships.

Andy Bargery (00:07):
McDonald's has a 20 year partnership with the advertising agency Leo Burnett, and they actually put a value on that of incremental sales value of 5.4 billion pounds linked to that long-term client and agency relationship.

Announcer (00:22):
This is the Cambridge Marketing Podcast.

Kiran Kapur (host) (00:26):
Hello and welcome this week we are in the world of client and agency relationships. Something a lot of marketers do is work with agencies and we're often not really taught how to do it well. So I'm very pleased to welcome Andy Bargery, tutor at the College who is client director at Oyster Catchers, which is a leading consultancy and you work on high street brands on agency search selection, marketing transformation, and building long lasting client agency relationships, which is what we're going to be discussing. So Andy, welcome to the show. Let's start with something really basic and what do we mean by an agency?

Andy Bargery (01:04):
Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. Delighted to be here, Kiran. So let's talk about agencies and what do we mean by an agency? So essentially agencies are service providers for marketeers and they fill gaps in expertise that brand side marketeers don't necessarily have. So for example, it might be someone that is really great at defining creative advertising solutions to a communications challenge, or it might be an agency that specialises in planning and buying media. So where do you put your advertising to reach your target audience? Or it could also be somebody that specialises in the earned media space. So more public relations and essentially an agency side marketeer is someone that has those specialist skills but works on multiple brands at the same time, versus an in-house marketer who has probably generally a broader marketing skillset and just works on their particular brand.

Kiran Kapur (host) (02:03):
So we've got specialists and generalists and sometimes the client is the generalist because they're just working on the brand and sometimes the agency is the specialist and so on. But also an agency brings that breadth of experience, don't they? So you work on a lot of different brands, so you bring all that experience to your advice.

Andy Bargery (02:20):
Exactly that. So you have agencies that specialise in particular categories or industry sectors and they can advise clients because they know that sector really, really well. And sometimes you have agencies that work across different sectors and they bring that broader experience to bear on helping you as the brand side marketeer to overcome your marketing challenge.

Kiran Kapur (host) (02:41):
Okay. So thank you. That was a nice and clear. So I think what I'm really interested in is the best way to work with an agency because like most marketers, I've worked with agencies where the relationship has been not particularly good and we've neither side has got the best out of each other. And you tend to notice you're working with an agency when it works really well, they just become an extension of the team and you don't really think about the fact that they are an agency and they have other clients. Because the real trick I think of an agency is to always make the client think that they are the only person in their lives. So talk me through some of the best and the worst that you've seen because you've worked client side and agency side.

Andy Bargery (03:21):
I have. I've been on both sides and now I sit in oyster catches is what's called intermediary. So we sit between clients and agencies helping them to foster relationships. And for me, I think there's real value in looking at client agency relationships with a long-term perspective because the longer you work with someone, the stronger that partnership, that relationship becomes in ways in which you see that is they know how to work well together. They have the agency has that deep and rich understanding as to how the client's business works. And these are things that take a long time for an agency to really absorb and to help and that form the basis of a strong partnership. So I think when clients and agencies work together over the long term, then that generates generally better results. And a great example of that is if we look at McDonald's has a 20 year partnership with the advertising agency, Leo Burnett, and they actually put a value on that of incremental sales value of 5.4 billion pounds linked to that long-term client and agency relationship.

(04:25):
So we can see from the enormous brands of this world that actually investing in those long-term partnerships drives business value. But it's not easy. And I think there are definitely ways in which good marketeers understand how to manage agencies well, and that is what is the basis of that relationship. And trust is a good example of what's really important in any relationship really, isn't it? Not just clients and agencies. And I think it's often seen that it's important for the agency to establish trust in the client, but also I think the other way around and the best relationships, the strongest relationships, we look back at that McDonald's example for example. They take the time to invest in understanding that relationship, to look at it forensically on a regular basis to see what's working, what's not working, and what could be better to improve that relationship and the strength of the relationship and use that as a basis for marketing performance.

Kiran Kapur (host) (05:28):
So I think there's lots of things that I find interesting in that. One of the obvious ones, did you say it was a 20 year relationship?

Andy Bargery (05:35):
20 years.

Kiran Kapur (host) (05:35):
So okay, that's incredible. The fact that they've put a value on it, I think it's really interesting is one of the questions we're going to discuss later on is how you measure things. But the personnel on both sides will have changed in that time. The chances are that one person, even one person is still 20 years later working both agency side and or client side. It is almost impossible. So how do you keep that long-term, that longevity of relationship going?

Andy Bargery (06:05):
No, you are absolutely right. The average tenure of a marketeer isn't 20 years. And certainly one of the biggest gripes we hear from brand side marketeers is that the agency team is forever rotating or churning I think is the term.

(06:19):
And having that kind of stability as long as you can is really important, but recognising that people are going to change. So having those systems and processes in place to make sure that there is a consistent way to measure and manage the health, the relationship is really, really important. And one of the ways you see that typically manifested is what's called a quarterly business review. And that quarterly business review is where the client and the agency look at the health of that relationship, look at the areas they've previously identified as places to focus for improvement and to see if progress is being made. So I think that that long-term approach needs the right processes in place to manage their relationship and to manage the transition of people in and out of both client and agency teams.

Kiran Kapur (host) (07:07):
Because the other part of that is you've got staff in both agency and client who are at different levels. So the finance director could think it's a fantastic relationship, but the marketing assistant who's actually got to do the work thinks it's the most appalling relationship because the agency doesn't listen to what they say. Can you tell, I'm possibly speaking for experience here and I think this is one of the things that I find so interesting about balancing a relationship. So how do you manage that side?

Andy Bargery (07:33):
Well, I think going back to that regular performance appraisal, that QBR is important to have a look at that from all different levels. So do a 360 degree evaluation of that relationship so that you are taking in those perspectives, not just of the leadership but the people on the ground, the boots on the ground doing the actual work, Kiran as well. And I think that by having that rounded perspective looked at regularly gives you that opportunity to ensure that every voice is heard and factored into what you're going to do in the next period, next quarter, the next 12 months, whatever that looks like for your planning cycle.

Kiran Kapur (host) (08:08):
So if I'm sitting as a marketer and I need to brief an agency, let's assume that the agency is already established, we might come back to how you appoint an agency later. What's the best way that I can brief an agency?

Andy Bargery (08:22):
Clearly

Kiran Kapur (host) (08:23):
[laughs]

Andy Bargery (08:24):
and on time. So we did a survey, I did a survey with the Marketing Meetup a few years ago and we asked, I think there was about 200 respondents, roughly 50:50 client side and agency side. And we asked what are the critical ingredients of a good relationship? And for agencies that a clear brief was their, I think it was their second most important part of that relationship. But for brand side marketeers, it was way down the list in terms of the importance of getting that results out of their agency. So there's a real misalignment over the importance of the brief, but also what is to be included in the brief. And I think one of the key skills of a marketeer is to understand what goes into a brief and what doesn't go into a brief. So clarity in that and having a consistent way to brief agencies is really important.

(09:15):
But also on the other side of the fence, if you are an agency side marketeer, you need to understand how to interrogate a brief and oftentimes you rewrite a client's brief and then agree on that before you take any steps further. And that's a key skill for an agency is to be able to actually not manipulate, but really understand, interrogate and rephrase a brief so that you're aligned around what's actually achievable. So are the stated objectives going to be solved by the scope of work that's within the brief, for example, is a really important thing. And I think for clients there is always the need to invest in understanding how to write a brief. It's definitely an underserved skill I think in the marketing community.

Kiran Kapur (host) (10:03):
So what sort of things in your opinion should be in a brief because you don't want to hammer it down so hard that the agency can't be creative?

Andy Bargery (10:11):
No, absolutely not. I think you need to have a clear objective in how you're going to measure that objective. Ideally you want to have a clear insight behind if it's a creative brief, what is it that we actually, what has given us the idea to proceed to pursue this course of action, you need to have some information on an audience and by audience it's not so much demographics, it's kind of attitudinal or behavioural that we're interested in rather than ABC1s for example. But that's more for a creative brief. It's slightly different perhaps for a media brief. But crucially, I think importantly here is agreeing on what those right ingredients of the brief are with your agency. So we can have our own template, but if the agency can't follow it, then I think it's important to actually refine that process. But there are lots and lots and lots of good resources online for what a good briefing template would look like, and that I think is a starter for 10.

Kiran Kapur (host) (11:09):
Okay. And then you said that I liked your word 'interrogate'. So the agency interrogates the brief pretty much in a way you might summarise something back just to check, have I understood you,? This was my understanding. So is that what they're doing?

Andy Bargery (11:22):
Yes. But also improving upon the brief as well. So have I understood you, but have you thought about this as well and using that as a way, so interrogation is not just about making sure you've understood it, but it's about making sure that it's the right brief in the first place. Does that brief in the agency's opinion, help the client to solve their marketing challenge or is it likely to result in wasted effort and budget?

Kiran Kapur (host) (11:47):
Thank you. So what's the biggest mistakes that marketers make? I'm sure you've seen some howlers I think most of us have in our working career, but where you sit in Oyster Catchers, you must need some real howers. So what's the biggest mistakes that marketers can make?

Andy Bargery (12:01):
Well, I think it's really important that you trust your agency as well. So you need to have found an agency that you believe can solve your challenge. And if you have issues with that, then address that and raise it early on in that relationship. But ideally you've found an agency that you can trust and then you can work with them over the long term to build that trust. And as the partnership strengthens, then the output of that relationship should also improve as well. So it's hard to say the biggest howlers, but from my career I've worked in agency life for about 20 years. I think probably where I've seen client side marketeers at their worst is where they're treating agency people poorly. I've had instances where members of my team have been treated very, very poorly by client side marketeers. And I think that that doesn't foster trust in a relationship when you aren't respecting the people in the agency team. And I think there is a real need for both sides of that agency-client coin to recognise and understand that there is pressure on both sides of that relationship and it's better if we work together closely in partnership to deliver great marketing.

Kiran Kapur (host) (13:12):
And one of the things that is difficult as well for an agency and often for marketers, and sometimes it's the junior marketers where you've got to give feedback and you are giving feedback possibly to the person that did the work or, actually sometimes harder, to your client relationship manager who's then got to go and brief the person that did the work. So are there tips for giving feedback to an agency?

Andy Bargery (13:36):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we prefer to say feeding forward rather than feeding back. It's like how do we put a spin on this? So it's more positive rather than the negative. But also I think critically with feedback is it helps if you've agreed on what the parameters are in the first place. So we talked to marketeers quite a lot around how do you evaluate creativity and feed that back or feed that forward I should say. So part of that is making sure that the evaluation criteria aligned to the brief that that agency has been given. So sometimes what we see is a creative brief and the creative response goes from the agency to the client. And the client are evaluating that creative response, not on the brief, but on their personal likes and dislikes. So I don't like the colour green or the IT director says that that's not the right model of PC. You've put in that bit of creative that's not really for you as the client to decide for you, it's does that piece of creative reflect the brief that they've been given in the first place and then using that creative brief to make sure that you've established what those criteria are for the evaluation of the work.

Kiran Kapur (host) (14:44):
Now, that's incredibly hard because I think most clients would say, but it's entirely my decision what PC has shown. Or from something from my own experience where for some reason we had baked beans spilling out of a tin. Why I was doing that, I was working in financial services at the time. And the number of baked beans, I mean, we had a massive row because there was 16 I think baked beans spilling out the tin and somebody wanted 24, but this, and this is how it can come down. The client can get very, very caught up in the creativity side and the agency sitting there going, '16, 18, 20, 24 baked beans, what on earth are you worrying about?' So again, there must be tips of managing that.

Andy Bargery (15:23):
Yeah, I think it's clear parameters, right? But also having a relationship with an agency that you trust where it doesn't matter if there's 18, 20, 24 baked beans. Overall, does that piece of creative hit the objective we've set the agency? For example, is it big, bold? Does it have the right calls to action, the right information? And then the actual creative piece.... if you've hired a creative agency because they're great at creative, you as the marketeer sometimes need to swallow or hold back your ego a little bit and let the creative agency do what you've hired them to do. And that is really tough to do because most people go into marketing because they have a bit of a creative leaning and want that to come through in their work. So that comes back down to trust. I think have we hired an agency we trust and believe is going to deliver great work for us?

Kiran Kapur (host) (16:14):
Yes. And I think you are right, holding back the ego the finance director wanted or the IT director wanted a different pc, I think you gave me that is exactly where IT director, maybe the IT director shouldn't be signing off the copy. Which is another question.

Andy Bargery (16:28):
Well, that's right. The one we often hear is, my wife doesn't like blue, for example, and is like, well, your wife doesn't have a sign off. It doesn't have a responsibility to sign off on the creative. And establishing those parameters up front is really important. And it's super hard as well when you are, if a marketeer working for an owner-managed business as well, so a smaller or medium sized enterprise where you are directly reporting into the owner of the business, then that becomes even more challenging.

Kiran Kapur (host) (16:55):
And are there tips that for managing that?

Andy Bargery (16:59):
Carefully! I think stakeholder management is one of those things that is important to take into account at the start of the process. So making sure that it's clear who are the decision makers in the sign off or approval process for a piece of work or whatever piece of work you're doing. It could be creative, it could be a media plan, it could be a marketing strategy. Understanding who the stakeholders are and their responsibility and authority in the processes is critical I think at the outset.

Kiran Kapur (host) (17:28):
Okay. So we've talked a lot about relationships that are already established. So obviously one of the big things with an agency is appointing your agency, which can be called the Beauty Parade. I've heard it called all sorts of things. What's the best way of going about doing that? And there are definitely some bad ways of going about doing that.

Andy Bargery (17:46):
Yes, there is. And there's a lot of debating at the moment whether the traditional pitch process is fit for purpose, particularly given the advance in technology and whether we are using AI and other tools to actually improve that pitch process and the amount of time that agencies spend and money spend on pitching. But there are definitely good ways and bad ways to run a pitch. And the pitch is how you identify an agency and then ultimately appoint them. And I think key things here are being really, really clear on is there a managed process? Who are the decision makers, what's the scope and scale of the project? And then making sure that when you're engaging that agency community, you're really clear on what it is you're looking for, what it is you are not looking for. So clarity in that scope of work, clarity in your budget, and critically sharing that budget with the agencies that you are talking to.

(18:43):
I know that client-side marketers don't want to hear that, but it's really important that you share a budget so agencies know what the size of the prize is and allocate resource accordingly. But having a really structured pitch process is helpful for both sides clients and agencies. So you understand how this is going to work and also the points at which you can evaluate agency submissions as you go through the process to then making an informed decision. And the bad way of doing that is not to have a managed process to keep your budget hidden, not to have clarity in your scope of work and to expect agencies to jump through millions of hoops without really sharing with them what the size of the prize is. It's a terrible phrase, but I really like it because it's accurate. It's really helpful for agencies to qualify an opportunity in or out, which will save you and them a lot of time if it's not quite the right fit for their agency.

Kiran Kapur (host) (19:39):
Yes, and you are right. Clients often forget that an agency can choose not to work with you

Andy Bargery (19:44):
Completely. Absolutely. And we are managing a process at the moment for a financial services brand who are looking for a new media agency. And halfway through the process, an agency decided they were going to pull out of that process for whatever reason. But it is their commercial decision whether or not to proceed. Regrettably, it was quite far into the process that they took that decision, but it happens and we needed to respond to that and make sure that our client still has the opportunity to talk to other great agencies in that process.

Kiran Kapur (host) (20:17):
The other thing you hear about clients doing is it's almost expecting the agency to come up with some brilliant ideas just at the pitch process. So maybe I can take those away and use them. And that is also, I think now considered really quite unethical. But you still see it happening.

Andy Bargery (20:32):
Yeah, it happens a lot. And I think it's important to manage that as well in the process and manage marketeers expectations around what's fair, realistic to ask of an agency in that process. And I think that it's unrealistic to expect a piece of work that's presented at a pitch to be market ready work to deliver straight away, because agencies in reality need time to really get under the skin of a client's problem. And you can't do that really perfectly in a pitch process. So it's a kind of simulation for me, it's a simulation of what it would be like to work with that agency. How did they tackle the challenge? How did they engage with my team? What kind of ideas did they come up with that we think evidence is the fact that they can do great creativity or they have got the skills within the team and less about I want to see a piece of work that I can deliver the week after you've pitched it, we can get it straight out into the market. And I think it's about being realistic with those expectations.

Kiran Kapur (host) (21:31):
I think that's a really, really important point that you make there. It's thinking about what the pitch is for, and the pitch is for understanding a working relationship

Andy Bargery (21:41):
100%. And we are running a process for a retailer at the moment. We've built in an extra step in the process where they can actually, as the client and agency team get together, sit around a table and actually do some thinking together and see how that feels. Is there a chemistry rapport there? Did they feel like they could work together in that kind of participatory environment, which is the culture of the client? So that is a very much a test run. And we're not asking the agency to do a huge amount of preparation and thinking in advance because what we're asking them to do is show us how they would run a session, which I think is an interesting and a fair way for both sides to get a test of what that relationship might look like.

Kiran Kapur (host) (22:23):
Fantastic. So if you had one or two key pieces of advice on managing an agency or client relationship, what would they be?

Andy Bargery (22:34):
I'd say the first one is spend time together. So as an agency, it's a key discipline to go out to your client's offices and spend time walking the halls, kicking the wheels and looking for opportunities to strengthen their relationship. And of course trying to find new projects and new opportunities. But critically the other way around as well, be the client that turns up at the agency's offices with a box of Krispy creams and spends the day there because they'll love you for it and you'll get to know all the characters across the business who are important to the delivery of their service to you as a client. So I think spend time working together is really, really critical. And the second one is invest in that relationship, measure the health of it and be open and transparent where there's opportunities to grow and use those longstanding agency client relationships as guidelines or inspiration for what the value of a long-term relationship might look like. And that's definitely built on trust, definitely built on open, clear communication between both sides. So I kind of feel a bit like a relationship counsellor here, Kerry, to be honest. But it's no different really between other relationships. The more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it.

Kiran Kapur (host) (23:50):
Fantastic. Andy Bargery, that was a really interesting overview of managing client and agency relationships. Thank you very much indeed.

(23:59):
Thank you for having me.