Podcast Summary: Brand Management 

This podcast covers the topic of brand management, particularly for smaller organisations.

The key points discussed include:

  • The importance of brand management for smaller organisations in establishing an image, reputation, and building trust with customers. [05:18]
  • The role of every employee as a "brand custodian" in smaller organisations, and the need for accessible brand guidelines and training. [07:06]
  • The significance of aligning brand values and tone of voice, and how this can be applied consistently across all touchpoints. [10:11]
  • The challenges and considerations around sponsorships, partnerships, and client selection to maintain brand integrity. [15:47]
  • The experience of setting up as a solopreneur, including the exhilaration and exhaustion, and the importance of having systems and processes in place. [16:27]

 

Podcast Transcript: Brand Management 

Transcripts are auto-generated.

Announcer (00:00):
In this episode of the Cambridge Marketing Podcast, it's brand management. For smaller organisations,

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (00:07):
I'd say it comes down to an understanding that every single person in the company is a brand custodian. The brand belongs to everyone. It's not just one person's job, and that means being familiar with the elements of the brand and how they get used.

Announcer (00:24):
You are listening to the Cambridge Marketing Podcast.

Kiran Kapur (host) (00:27):
Hello and welcome. Today we are in the world of branding, but particularly brand management for smaller organisations. Far too often we talk about branding as though it's to do with big companies or big brands that have been around for many years. But smaller organisations need to worry about their branding as well. And I'm absolutely delighted to welcome Anushree Deshpande from a wonderfully named company, Sleight of Brand. Anushree, we've got to discuss how you came up with that name. It's such a wonderful name for a company.

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (01:02):
Thank you very much for having me. I'm really thrilled to be here. So there's a four part answer to that and I shall begin with the fact that when I was made redundant from my previous corporate role, one of the things I was considering was striking out on my own. And I knew I wanted to work in the brand space. And I realised also I knew that I had to 'walk the talk' If I was going to be offering brand related services, then my own company brand had to do what it says and be an example of what I can do for other people's brands. I also love workplace. So it was somewhere along those lines that I was thinking and I was on a red eye bus with my dad. I was in India visiting family and I couldn't sleep. So I was just letting my brain do its thing and having fun with this exercise of, oh, what am I going to call this?

(01:55):
And I came up with 20 odd names in that space. This was one of them. But the way I came up with it is down to a couple of autistic traits. One of them is, it's called echolalia and it's the repetition of phrases, words, noises, what have you. I've often used that in the past to kind of figure out what rhymes with a specific word to just kind of see what comes up. But also the concept of apophenia, which is the ability to connect disparate things. So when I was thinking brand what rhymes with brand, his hand came up and I was like slight of fan. And then it started off as a joke. Haha, I'm going to call this slight of brand. But the more I thought about it, the more I was like, no, this is perfect for me and this is very much my brand. I love wordplay, I love puns and just the whole language thing. Plus it's a name that's going to make people sit up and take notice and a name can't do everything. But this one just makes you go, I wonder what they do then and how do they do that? And there's a bit of the promise on the face of it as well. I create s light of brand for the people. So that's how it came to be

Kiran Kapur (host) (03:16):
It's a fantastic name and it is definitely a name that one remembers. So let's talk a little bit about brand and brand management. What do you mean by brand management?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (03:27):
When it comes to brand? I'd say a brand is an expression of who you are, but answered in a way that makes it matter to your audience because there's always that question of what's on it for me for your target audience. So brand management is all about the ongoing careful curation and nurturing of your brand. So you are presenting a unified cohesive expression at all times. And ultimately you have to remember that every touch point of your brand is creating an experience for someone who's interacting with it. So it's about creating that consistent experience. And I want to say your brand is working for you 24 7 even if you are not all your, so it's really, really important that you careful about what you're putting out there and making sure that it comes together holistically. I think if I were to offer an example, let's say everyone's familiar with what an Apple store looks like.

(04:32):
Let's say they suddenly decide to start using neon green branding in one of their stores. Someone walking in there would be really jarred by that because that is so not a part of their brand and that's what it comes down to. And it could apply to things like sponsorships or co-branding, even the clients that you work with, who do you choose to work with and what that says about your brand. So the question comes down to is this on brand? Is whatever we're about to do, whatever we're about to put out, is that on brand for our company, our business? And that's how I describe brand management.

Kiran Kapur (host) (05:10):
So you're seeing it very much holistically as well. I think many people still think of a brand as it's the logo, yes, the colour. So when we're talking about brand management for a smaller organisation, first of all, why does it matter? And then we'll explore what it means for a smaller organisation. So why should I as perhaps a smaller organisation, someone that's just started up, why does brand management matter? There's so many other things to think about. Why should I focus on brand management?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (05:38):
It's the easiest way to establish an image and a reputation and build that trust because the more consistently and the more consistency people see in the way that you express yourself, the more it builds trust because they know what to expect and you're not out something brown one day and then neon green the next. So it's a question of building trust and that takes time. So you have to do things consistently, constantly to be able to build that trust for your clients to know who you are, what you do, why does it matter for them and what it means ultimately, what do you stand for?

Kiran Kapur (host) (06:17):
And so for a smaller organisation, what does brand management mean for them? What does a smaller organisation need to do? If I'm sitting in a smaller organisation thinking, oh, I actually haven't done enough about brand management, what do I do? Where do I start?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (06:35):
So it's both simple and complicated and I'm contrasting it with, when I've worked in really big organisations, typically you'd have a dedicated brand team over there to answer queries and guide people because there's nuances to be a navigated and you kind of, there's a team on the ground there to help you do that consistently. In smaller organisations, not so much I imagine, especially if it's a solopreneur, you're doing everything by yourself. So what do you focus on and how do you know if you're doing something wrong? So I'd say it comes down to an understanding that every single person in the company is a brand custodian. The brand, it belongs to everyone. It's not just one person's job. And that means being familiar with the elements of the brand and how they get used. And where this gets complicated is sometimes people have rashes and rashes of guidelines going into intricacies and most people don't have the time for that.

(07:41):
So it's being able to provide something that's accessible but also easy to pass and apply. So it comes down to being able to have ready templates for things and think about how whatever this is going to look and portray you, your brand externally when goes out. If you've got a building signage for instance, that needs to be applied consistently, make sure your logos on your invoices. One specific thing that I've noticed is that if a brand has a tune of voice, then that's the one thing that sort of tends to fall by the wayside a little bit because not everyone is able to apply that. But a raising awareness of what that tone of voice is and how it applies to their day to day through some writing training and the sort which I used to offer and still do, that's one way of doing it.

(08:36):
And we talk about tone of voice specifically. So if I were to give examples, Monzo does it really well and Innocent also Pret [a Manger] the tones of voices are quite similar to each other. This is a very informal friendly approach that they take and it works really well, especially for Monzo where they're dealing with some pretty complicated financial terminology and having to explain it in really simple terms. But they've done it really well so far and they continue to do it. So that's kind of what I would imagine brand management comes down to, for someone who isn't a brand person on a day-to-day basis.

Kiran Kapur (host) (09:20):
I think it's quite interesting. The Monzo example's really interesting because taken what has been a very stuffy product, banking financial services and turned it into something that actually seems quite friendly. But I think there's also a danger that, and I've seen it with my own students where they sometimes feel that in order to have a tone of voice, it has to be chatty and friendly, whereas there are definitely brands where it would be perfectly acceptable. I don't want my solicitors be chatty and friendly, I want them to sound authoritative and they're going to be on my side. That's not necessarily chatty and informal. So I think when you talk about tone of voice, it is very much choosing the right tone of voice, isn't it?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (10:01):
A hundred percent. And this is where the values of your brand and your business come into play and it's about is brand strategy. Essentially it's the foundation of your brand. So everything that you do intend to do needs to come from that place of is this in line with our values? And if it's not, then how do we make it that way? But also values, there's a lot of brands that will go with integrity as a value. I mean it's kind of what does that actually mean? And your brand values also need to translate into everyday behaviour. What does this actually look like? And using those values as a basis for informing your tone of voice, every other element of the brand is the way to go, therefore.

Kiran Kapur (host) (10:43):
That's also very interesting. I was trying to think of some examples of brands where you can just rely on them. And the trouble is one ends up with big companies again, but something like Heinz is reliable because they are consistent, but they're consistent in everything they do, and as a result, we trust them. When we give Heinz to our children, for example, I mean that's probably the most trusting thing you can do with a brand is actually feed it to your child. But it's also a question of finding the right tone of voice, particularly in a solopreneur, it's got to be your tone of voice, hasn't it? I couldn't suddenly announce I was going to sound like a standup comedian because that just isn't who I am. So you've got to fit it to your target market, your audience, but also to yourself.

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (11:27):
It's easy in some ways for solopreneurs I think because it's your voice ultimately. There isn't that much of a distinction between your business' brand and you writing the way you speak normally works. There is a tone of voice strategist, writer, trainer called Nick Parker, and he puts out a substack and it's called Tone Knob and it examines the tones of voice of different brands. It's fascinating and you'll see a variety of approaches in there. It's worth looking that up because there's often someone that said, okay, so friendly can be an attribute, but friendly can mean so many things. So again, it's getting down into the weeds of how does that actually play out? It can't be top level generic thinking and then just left to interpretation.

Kiran Kapur (host) (12:15):
Yes, I thought your comment about what does integrity look like is very important as well. And I was interested in your comment earlier on where you said it's also the people that you associate yourself with.

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (12:25):
100%

Kiran Kapur (host) (12:26):
So that's another really interesting element. So would you advise if a company was thinking perhaps this customer does not align, that's the hardest thing to do is to turn down a potential customer. But you would advise that if it was right, if that customer didn't fit with your brand,

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (12:47):
Ultimately if you're saying one thing but doing another, all that's going to do is damage your own brand. So I can think of a couple of examples where B Corp, right? So brew dog, the IPA company, they recently lost their B Corp certification because there were reports of them not treating their employees and it's that sort of thing. There were also a couple of media agencies who had Shell as one of their major clients and that led them to the B Corp status is being questioned and whether it was worth, you see this is where it goes down, your brand is getting damaged because you're doing things that you said you don't stand for.

Kiran Kapur (host) (13:33):
Yes. So if you're B Corp and you say that you are stamping, you are recognising ethical companies, you have to keep challenging those companies ethics all the time.

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (13:43):
Exactly. It's easier if you don't take on clients who don't match your values.

Kiran Kapur (host) (13:49):
Yes, that's a very good point. The other thing I know that you say, because I was looking at your website and you talk about making certain that things like all your documentation fits in with your branding. So you mentioned invoices earlier

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (14:03):
Yes

Kiran Kapur (host) (14:04):
And I think that's an area that particularly as a small business, one can often just go, well, it's just an invoice, but your argument would be that that's very much part of your brand as well.

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (14:13):
A hundred percent. Signatures are another really big thing. Every single person in the organisation needs to have the same signature in terms of design, the layout, the format, what have you, and there will be instances where people will need to personalise it a bit more. Like if you're dealing with someone working flexible hours, they will have a statement on what their flexible hours mean. Or say someone who is dyslexic and they will want to put in a note that says Any typo because of my dyslexia, don't make it a judgement of my character for that reason. So it's being able to allow for those things, but still kind of presenting a unified front ultimately.

Kiran Kapur (host) (14:58):
That's really interesting. So are there any sort of do's and don'ts that you can think of for a smaller organisation of when they're thinking about brand management?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (15:06):
This is going to be very top level, but I think it comes down to don't overcomplicate it. Because like I said, not everyone has time to read rashes and rashes of guidelines and then figure out how they fit in, make your guidelines readily accessible and easy to apply, and then encourage brand ownership at all levels of the organisation. When I worked at PwC UK, one of the things that the brand team at that point who was very emphatic about doing was impressing on everyone that they were also brand custodians. It wasn't just us. The brand belonged to them as much as it did to us, and it was down to them to mitigate any brand dilution, brand damage as much as we did. Obviously as the brand team, we'd have a bit more know-how than they did, but the basics of it we'd expect them to be aware of and apply in their day-to-day.

Kiran Kapur (host) (15:57):
And the other thing you mentioned was sponsorship, and I know even as a small company, you can be approached for sponsorship or asked to do sponsorship for things and you tend to think it was a good idea I'd get my logo out there. So again, is that something that you should think carefully about whether it aligns with your brand values?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (16:13):
Hundred percent, a hundred percent. Everything comes down to the values. I think if it doesn't align with your values, then it's good to look inconsistent that it goes back to that you're seeing one thing, you're doing another. How are people going to trust you?

Kiran Kapur (host) (16:27):
Fantastic. Now, one of the things I know I wanted to talk about was setting up as a solopreneur, which I know you've done relatively recently. What does that feel like to do?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (16:40):
Exhilarating and exhausting

Kiran Kapur (host) (16:45):
Actually, having done it, I think that's a brilliant description. That's exactly what it feels like. So let's look at the two parts of that. So what makes it so exhilarating?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (16:56):
The liberty to do things your way to kind of choose who you work with, choose what you work on, choose where and when you work and all that rest of that. I think what I'm finding is that it's given me a lot more space to just ideate and do something with those ideas. Ultimately, it's exhausting side of it. You're doing everything. You're doing every single thing. But this is where I think having systems in place really comes in handy. Particularly for me, once I've got a system in place, I don't have to think about how I do things or the order of it or what comes next. That's just I'm executing without having to have a second thought about it. But often getting to that place of having a system in place, having worked it out, that does take a lot of effort, time, energy, what have you, but it's totally worth doing.

Kiran Kapur (host) (17:52):
So when you say systems, what sort of systems are we talking about and what do you need systems for?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (17:59):
Processes. So how are my clients approaching me? I offer a free discovery call, 20 minutes where we can talk about what clients are looking to do and how I can help them. And I use Calendly to set that up so there's no back and forth of, oh, can you do a discovery call? Oh yes, I have avail here. What about you? Blah, blah, blah. They just choose what works for them and we get on with it. The way I tend to work, depending on which bit of the brand I'm addressing on, again, I've got systems in place for, so this is the output that I need and this is the framework or the method that I used to get there. And because I've done it before, it just means I don't have to start from scratch thinking about, okay, so this happens, but then X thing comes before that. So how do I do that? It's a matter of practise.

Kiran Kapur (host) (18:51):
I think one of the processes, I know what always trip me up and I see it with suppliers that I use is the financing, just the invoicing, let alone make certain your invoice is consistent and making it be right for your brand. One of the things one can sometimes forget to do is invoice people. There's almost an embarrassment sometimes about invoicing or it just means sitting down and doing it. So I'm guessing as an organised person, you have a system for that as well?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (19:19):
Yes, it's easier in some ways now because there's lots of software out there that can help you automate this stuff. Someone I worked with uses Stripe and you agree the payment terms upfront and then automatically whatever payment terms you've agreed, whatever timeline it gets deducted. So once you've kind of filled in those details, they don't have to chase the things. You don't have to sit there going, where's my card? What am I paying? How much does this amount to blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that does kind of help things definitely.

Kiran Kapur (host) (19:55):
So you've got, yes, you've got the exhaustion and the exhilaration. What made you decide to set yourself up?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (20:04):
It came down to wanting to do something with all the skills that sort of garnered over the course of my career, and ultimately I found that the brand spaces where I'm able to do that. I remember when I started my brand role at pwc uk, it felt like I'd come home. And so as I studied journalism, realised working as a journalist wasn't really for me, worked in publishing. After that academic publishing for seven years was made redundant. Then I got a role at the Lancet, which at that time was the world's number two medical journal. I didn't do that for very long. It just didn't really align with the amount of learning and execution that I wanted to do. And it was pretty niche print production. So then I landed a role at Schroders, but not directly for them. There was an in-house studio that they kind of contracted out, and that was pretty exciting because there was a lot of variety, there was a lot of, it was really busy and I used to manage workflow over there, which was essentially clients would send requests to you and then you had to figure out deadlines, get any questions answered, get the work done, quality checked, and then send that back out to the clients.

(21:22):
And I mean clients as people internally, not externally. And the studio did everything from events and events could entail up to 50 odd pieces of collateral from badges to menus to this, that and the other campaigns. Of course there was some digital design, all sorts of things that you kind of don't tend to think about on a day-to-day basis, but still happens. And a lot of it in there was about applying the Schroder's brand correctly. From there I went to PWC UK where I was in the proposals team, and that was where I sat sort of halfway between the external agencies that actually worked on the design and creation of our bid documentation and internal proposal teams, which were actually working on the proposal coming up with the content, very strict deadlines. And I think the fascinating part there was the fact that you had to appeal to the potential client's brand while also being true to yours and not really diluting either side.

(22:36):
And I remember we didn't really have a brand team as such, but the people who were sort of the course brand team at the point would often look ASINs at the stuff that we sometimes produced because it was a little bit, they'd often be thinking specifically and only about the PWC brand, but you had to walk a very fine line essentially. But being in that role just got me thinking about, this is fascinating and I want to be doing this from a higher level, getting involved in the strategic side of things, the thinking before the doing happens, and all the stuff that I'd worked on in the past, the journalism, the artwork, the production side of things, applying the brand, all of that, I was able to bring that together in my brand role. And when I was made redundant, I was considering striking out on my own. And yeah, that's ultimately what I ended up doing. Since

Kiran Kapur (host) (23:38):
You describe your career as being eclectic but organic, which I just think is the most wonderful description, I mean, listening to your career trajectory, it's obvious that you've taken branding in so many different ways and taken your play with words in so many different ways, starting with journalism, moving through that you've and then brought it all together. And I think this is one of the things that I occasionally see with solopreneurs where they think it's going to be relatively easy and they forget that you need a niche, you need something that you are good at. You can't just go, I'm a marketing solopreneur. You've got to be something that is yours.

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (24:16):
Yeah, because what's setting you apart? And that's a question that your clients are also going to be asking, why should I work with you as opposed to that other marketing professional doing their own thing. I think when it comes to couriers, especially now, linearity is a lie. We're not in the same environment. Say my dad worked for last and Uber for 30 odd years. That just doesn't happen anymore. Not a lot. People tend to change jobs a lot and they change streams and industries and sectors, and that's okay because you get to learn a lot more that way, I think. And learning is it's a really big driver for me, but also isn't that kind of the point of life (you know) progress, but not for the sake of progress.

Kiran Kapur (host) (25:01):
And I think we call them squiggly careers now, but as you say, it's not a linear career. Very few people have linear careers. So yes, if I was sitting at home thinking, 'oh, I'd quite like to be a solopreneur' , I think one of the things that we've been very clear about is that you've got to have a niche in something you do. Is there anything else you would say to somebody sitting in that position?

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (25:24):
Work out your 'why?' Why are you doing this? Keep you going. I want to say something about discipline and routine and that sort of thing, but it's taken me a really long time to kind of arrive at a routine that works for me. And even then, it's in a very loose sense. It's not rigid in the sense of, oh, I wake up at x, y, z time. I drink my coffee at x, y, z time and I work on X thing. At this point, it's more having a rough structure that kind of works for you and it helps you see that you are moving forward. That's important.

Kiran Kapur (host) (25:58):
I think that's extremely good advice for anybody coming into this sort of world because finding a routine that works for you is incredibly hard. I mean, when we were comparing notes before we started recording, one of my things was always a Monday morning. Nobody asked me how my weekend was because clients don't care. They expect you to ask about their weekend, but they definitely don't care about yours.

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (26:21):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, personally, the social element doesn't impact me very much. I don't need a lot of time with other people. That's just who I am. So that works really well for me. But I think that was also a huge part of working out that I wanted to do this because being in a full-time job would often mean FaceTime with other, and there was meetings and meetings and meetings, and I think it was on occasion working against me and being able to be my best and do my best. So from that perspective, going solar has definitely been fantastic for me.

Kiran Kapur (host) (26:58):
Anushree Deshpande from Sleight of Brand, thank you so much for your time and your insights. It's been absolutely great to cover marketing and branding for smaller organisations and also just what it's like to be a solopreneur and what it feels like to set up. So thank you very much indeed.

Anushree Deshpande, Sleight of Brand (27:16):
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.