Podcast Summary


Kiran Kapur interviewed Daniel Fox, a radio presenter and producer, about the world of podcasting. Fox provided a broadcaster's perspective, starting with the definition and etymology of the term "podcast." He discussed the different categories of podcasts, the relationship between traditional radio and podcasting, and how podcasters could learn from radio broadcasting techniques. Key topics included structuring a show with "billboards," promoting content via social media, managing guests, and the critical importance of a thorough editing process. Fox also covered the technical aspects of podcasting, such as recording software and distribution platforms, concluding with the mantra "prepare tight, perform loose."

 

Key Points

  • The term "podcast" was a portmanteau of "iPod" and "broadcast" and was now largely a nonsensical name as iPods are rarely used.
  • Podcasts were broadly split into fact-based (like business or true crime) and fiction-based (storytelling) categories.
  • Podcasters could learn valuable lessons from radio broadcasting regarding structure, audience engagement, and editing, just as radio has learned from podcasting.
  • Using a "billboard" at the start of an episode, a short collection of clips of what's to come, was an effective radio technique to hook listeners and increase listening time.
  • Promoting a podcast effectively requires identifying where the target audience "hangs out" on social media (e.g., LinkedIn for business, Twitter for sports) and focusing efforts there.
  • To manage guests, it was best to make them comfortable, often by recording them in their own homes, and to remind them that mistakes could be edited out.
  • When a guest talked too long, it was better to let them finish and edit later rather than rudely interrupting, as there might be a "bit of gold" in their monologue.
  • Editing was crucial; Fox recommended a three-pass process: a technical edit for sound balance, a content edit to ensure every part adds value, and a final polish.
  • The guiding principle for creating a good podcast was to "prepare tight, perform loose," meaning that thorough preparation allows for a natural and relaxed on-air delivery.

 

Podcast Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated.

 

Announcer (00:02):
The Cambridge Marketing Podcast with Kiran Kapur, brought to you by Cambridge Marketing College. See their range of courses and apprenticeships at marketingcollege.com.

Kiran Kapur, Host (00:13):
Hello, I'm Kiran Kapur, and this week we're rather hoping the universe isn't going to implode because we're going meta. We're going to do a podcast about podcasts. We're going right from the top and we'll explain what a podcast is.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (00:25):
It's one of those really weird things. It's a bit like describing the colour orange.You kind of know what a podcast is, but it's a difficult thing to describe.

Kiran Kapur, Host (00:34):
Why the name podcast is a nonsense?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (00:37):
Nobody that I have known for the last 10 years has had an Apple iPod.

Kiran Kapur, Host (00:42):
And give some practical advice on how to create your own masterpiece.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (00:45):
Edit, edit, edit. So I will edit everything three times.

Announcer (00:48):
The Cambridge Marketing Podcast from Cambridge Marketing College.

Kiran Kapur, Host (00:52):
This week we're going to be looking at podcasting. Fair to say it's an area with a big explosion of interest. And my guest is Daniel Fox, who is a radio presenter and producer and the editor of this show. So I'm turning the tables. Daniel, thank you for coming on. You're going to give a broadcaster's view of podcasting. So should we start with what is a podcast?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (01:14):
So a first good question, what is a podcast? I mean, it's one of those really weird things. It's a bit like describing the colour orange. You kind of know what a podcast is, but it's a difficult thing to describe and it's actually a complete nonsense, the word podcast. Why is that, Kiran?

Kiran Kapur, Host (01:31):
Oh, that's a bit mean.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (01:32):
The word podcast is nonsense because nobody that I have known for the last 10 years has had an Apple iPod. In fact, I was surprised to see that Apple still sell them, although they don't advertise them on their website. You have to go look at them. But the word podcast is a portmanteau of iPod and broadcast. So from the very top, it's a kind of nonsense name really. But a podcast is pretty much anything that's audio that's downloadable that people can listen to on their mobile devices. Podcasts come in many, many different shapes and sizes, which is the brilliant thing about them. You can have a podcast on anything. They're broadly split into two categories. So you've got fact ones like the one that you make, the one we're doing right now. And you've got fiction ones. And below fact, on the fact column, if you like, you've got the explosion in true crime podcasts.

(02:23):
You've got business podcasts, sport podcasts are huge. And also you have got radio jumping on the bandwagon of the podcast revolution, which is, I mean, it's 10 years old now, really, probably a bit older. And radio shows trying to get an extra kind of audience from podcasts. And then on the fiction side, you've got, in generality, you've got storytelling.

Kiran Kapur, Host (02:46):
So you said radio getting on the bandwagon. I mean, I probably consume more radio programmes, broadcast ones as podcasts, i.e. I'm not listening to them live. I decide when I'm going to listen to them, I do them at my own time.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (03:00):
Yeah.

Kiran Kapur, Host (03:00):
So would you see that as slightly different?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (03:02):
Broadcasters and podcasters argue about this. Now podcasters, classic podcasters will say that a radio show that is kind of cut up and put together in a kind of best bits style. That isn't a podcast. That's what they would say. Technically, it is a podcast because as we've already said, anything that is an audio file that's downloadable for people to listen to whenever they want, is a podcast. But radio acknowledged a long time ago, and I think the first podcast I ever listened to from a radio show was 2003, I would say 2003, 2004. And that was when radio acknowledged that actually, you know what? If a programme is 30 minutes long and you're making seven days worth of 24 hour programming, the chance of your audience hearing that programme is quite small, but if you can broadcast ... excuse the term, but if you can broadcast and publish the fact you have this content on your website, on your social media channels, and you can get an extra audience for it.

(04:01):
Not only are you delivering better value for whoever made that programme and whoever's been paid to make that programme, but you're also, you're getting a bigger audience from the programme that you've made.

Kiran Kapur, Host (04:13):
It's interesting you said that some podcasts that think that you shouldn't cut up a podcast, because if I have a personal hate, it's when two, three people get together, stick a microphone in front of them, do a stream of consciousness, and then put that out and claim that's a podcast.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (04:27):
Yeah. And again, I reiterate anything is a podcast that's an audio file that you can download, but there are certainly things that podcasters can learn from radio. And I don't say that in a radio kind of hierarchy way that we're better than podcasters, but there's definitely stuff that podcasters can learn from radio. Just as radio genuinely has learned from podcasters, and it really has over the last 20 years. So there is stuff, and you mentioned three guys all around one microphone just kind of talking away. That would never happen on radio because you just wouldn't get an audience for it. So that's a big mistake in my opinion and in the opinion of lots of broadcasters that podcasters regularly make.

Kiran Kapur, Host (05:12):
Okay. So one things I love is when you start talking about the various elements of the show. So I've done ... I mean, I thought I was an old hand at podcasting because I started in 2013, but it sounds like actually I'm not that old hand. So one of the things I've done is an as live podcast where interviews were done as live and they weren't edited. One of the tricks you've taught me to do is have a billboard at the beginning of a show. So what's that?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (05:39):
So billboards are quite popular in news programmes, particularly made by the BBC. And the idea is that if you've got a 30 minute programme, or in the case of the World Service, quite often they're 24 minutes long, it's telling people very quickly what you've got coming up that will make them listen for longer. Now in radio, particularly commercial radio, all you're trying to do is get people to listen longer because the ultimate gain is to get your audience to listen to your adverts. So a billboard is what you would've heard right at the start of this podcast, and it's a couple of clips just telling people what's coming up. So people have a very short attention span, I particularly do have, but I think that's true of human beings. And the idea is you're trying to tell somebody that this is worth listening to. So you're selling your benefits right from the beginning.

(06:28):
So that's what people heard right at the start. That was just what we call a billboard.

Kiran Kapur, Host (06:33):
Okay. And the other end of the show, because this always intrigues me, is the sort of how you finish a show. And listening again to the BBC, they always finish with the plug about thank you for listening, do subscribe, because then it'll come to you directly. And there was a big discussion. I'm a big fan of Newscast, previously Brexit cast, where they have a section out that thank you for listening. You clearly ooze stamina. And there was a big audience debate about whether they wanted the word ooze to stay in and it stayed in, but it's always the same repetitive out ending. Is that a good practise?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (07:08):
Yes and no. We were saying a minute ago about things that podcasters can learn from radio and radios learn from podcasts. I think that's something that audio generally has learned from the internet in as much as if you read an article on a news website, let's do it now. So let's go to the BBC News website. Here we go. Election 2021, How Do I Vote in the May Elections? This is just going to make a very quick point here. Already there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine links on that website to other content that that host has. So does that make sense? On that one article on the BBC News website, they have linked to nine other pieces of content. And the idea is basically someone's come to you, and you now want to make sure that they enjoy more of your content and become a regular consumer of the content that you make.

(08:04):
It would be a shame to go to all the effort of writing an article or making a podcast or making a radio show, and someone discovers it for the first time, and you don't then invite them back to something else. So the end of a programme, I mean, there's no one way to skin a cat. It's like anything, but I would urge any podcaster to make sure that you are inviting people back for another listen or something else that they might enjoy that you've already done. So is it a case of talking about previous episodes of your podcast? Is it talking about another guest that you've got coming up in a couple of weeks time? Remember with podcasts, is that people have made a conscious effort to listen, to download your audio. So the chances are they already like you. So you just then have to kind of encourage them back.

Kiran Kapur, Host (08:56):
So what other tricks are there? So we've have a billboard at the beginning and lots of links to other content.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (09:03):
Tricks to build your podcast?

(09:05):
Social media is, I would say, the one thing really where you can build a huge audience and a huge following. Now radio, and if you look at the iTunes chart, the podcast chart, a large amount of the top 20s in each category are radio shows and that is because ... Well, there's a number of reasons. Obviously, sometimes the presenters are quite famous. Sometimes they're talking about it on their radio show on the live show, but generally it's because they've got big social media followings. So think about what sort of podcast you have. Is it a business podcast? If it is, you should be talking about it on LinkedIn, which of course is the social media channel of choice for business. Is it sport? I dare say if it's a sport podcast, Twitter is probably your home. If you're doing a kind of podcast on beauty and things like that, think about where your audience would be naturally when it comes to social media.

(09:58):
So think about your podcast and think, where do my listeners hang out? And that is where you need to be and that's where you need to be banging your drum.

Kiran Kapur, Host (10:07):
Okay. So as I've got you on and you are a broadcaster. Give me some sort of hints and tips that broadcasters use. So for example, how do you relax a nervous guest?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (10:19):
Okay. That's a really good question. And it's something that's quite difficult. And I've had to do it many times as both a presenter who's sat opposite someone who's terrified. And also as a kind of studio director, when I've been producing radio programmes or producing podcasts, you have to remember that the environment of a radio station is not natural to people at all. So if you can get them kind of breathing and nice and chilled out and just feeling as comfortable as possible, that's the best way. So if someone was coming into a radio station, for example, to record an interview, I would offer them a drink. I would not take them near the studio too early and things like that. The best thing that podcasters have going for them generally is you don't invite guests into terrifying radio stations. They're at home where they feel the most comfortable.

(11:16):
And a couple of years ago, it was quite unusual to hear someone being interviewed from their house and you'd go, "Oh, that sounds a bit weird." But what COVID has done is kind of condition us all to being used to hearing Zoom audio or MS Teams audio or any other audio that sounds like it's a little bit compressed. So people are used to hearing that. So my top tip for guests is if you can interview them at home where they're comfortable, do that, remind them. And again, this is another thing that podcasts have got in their kind of advantage, whereas radio programmes haven't, it's not live. So if I make a mistake now, I'm going to edit it out. And that's what you say to people. And I know you're very good at this, Kiran, is when we're talking to someone before we start, we say, "Look, don't worry if you mess up because it's all edited, Daniel will take it out.

(12:05):
" And generally it's me that makes all the mistakes anyway, that gets people to laugh and then they're instantly a bit more relaxed. But just remind people that it's a recorded item. And actually, do you know what? The bottom line is, and this is one thing I've learned from radio, people love it when you mess up. They love it.

Kiran Kapur, Host (12:23):
That is true. I also have to say half the time when I tell the guests that it'll be me that messes it up, it's because it is me that messes it up. Yes, that's right. Thanks, Daniel. So conversely, and sometimes this happens with the nervous guests, they suddenly get into a groove and they just start talking

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (12:43):
And

Kiran Kapur, Host (12:43):
It's very easy as the interviewer that you can hear them going down a rabbit hole that you don't want them to go down and you've just lost it. So how do you shut a guest up?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (12:52):
You don't. I don't think you do. I really don't think you do because it's a bit like selling. When you are interviewing someone, you start from, and I think we've all seen a rapport graph, okay? So you start from the very first moment and the rapport might not be very high, unless it's someone you've met before or someone you know, rapport starts quite low. So you need to build that quite quickly. And we know how you do that. You shower people with love, you encourage them, you say this was great and that was great and so on and so forth. What you don't want to do at the point where you've got rapport up with a contributor, you don't want it to take a nosedive by talking over them. And we've all been on MS Teams and Zoom meetings over the last few months where a colleague has just talked over us and it's really rude.

(13:39):
And I'm sorry, there's no other way of really saying it. Now again, and I keep saying this, this is something that podcasters have to their advantage. You're not on Radio Four trying to hit the pips at eight o'clock, which won't move and won't wait for anyone. You have got all the time in the world. So if you feel that they're going down a rabbit hole and you had a question that you wanted to ask, my advice would be just keep recording. Write down the question you want to ask. When they finish rabbling on, say, "That was great. Thank you very much." Deep breath to make your edit a little bit easier and just ask the question you were going to ask next anyway. Sometimes in that little kind of diatribe that they then deliver as they're going off on this massive sermon, sometimes there will be a bit of gold in there and if you talked over them and you stopped them, you're going to miss it.

(14:26):
So I always say to anybody in podcasting, in radio, in TV, whatever, if you're recording, over record and then edit because there's nothing worse. And I remember this used to happen time and time again when I was doing a live breakfast radio show, somebody would call in, they'd say something really funny, you'd stop recording and then they would say the funniest thing after you'd stopped recording. So you always record till the moment, till the very moment that the contributor has gone. They either need to be in the car or they need to have hung up. That's when you stop recording because quite often in that long sermon they deliver that there is something that you actually want to use.

Kiran Kapur, Host (15:07):
Okay. So one of the things that you keep mentioning is editing and I think you can tell a professionally edited podcast and I don't mean professionalising, it's got to be someone who has the word editor in their title. It's just somebody who takes a professional attitude to editing. So again, what are the hints and tips around editing?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (15:27):
So I have a rule myself and it's called edit, edit, edit. When I use this in podcasts and I use this on radio shows when I'm recording bits with guests, whether they're interviewees, whether they're on the phone, edit, edit, edit. So I will edit everything three times. Now, we all have an ego and we all particularly have an ego when we do this kind of thing. If we didn't, the truth is we wouldn't do a podcast or we wouldn't do a radio show. You have an ego. Everyone's got one. It's bigger if you're in this line of business. There is a mistaken belief among lots of broadcasters and podcasters that people hang on your every blooming word and the truth is they don't, right? So this is where podcasting can learn from radio is what's the listener benefit? What is the benefit of somebody listening to your podcast?

(16:19):
And if a bit doesn't add to that, take it out, just take it out. Nothing, and this is something we learned from radio. If you're doing a kind of comedy podcast or something like that, it's quite lighthearted, nothing ever got funnier the longer it went on. Do you know what I mean? So edit, edit is something that we always, always use as a mantra in the stuff that I make. And that means it is time-consuming. And sometimes, yeah, sometimes your podcast is going to be alive. It might be an AMA and ask me anything where you want quite a raw sound and that's fine. It's not about editing out every and and making it sound like it's not human. It's just making sure that all of the content that is in the podcast, in the broadcast actually adds something. And if it doesn't add something, I'm really sorry to say.

(17:12):
We used to say 25 years ago, it belongs on the floor when you're editing tape.

Kiran Kapur, Host (17:17):
Does that mean you actually listen to every podcast three times in order to edit?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (17:21):
Yes. And I don't come from a marketing background. As you said, when you introduced me, I'm a broadcaster. I started this job at the age of 18, but because I've listened to every single one of your podcasts three times, I now feel like I am an expert marketer. So sometimes- Oh Daniel, you poor thing. But you listen to things three times with different ears. So the first time I'm listening technically, so I'm making sure that everything's sonically balanced. So everyone's as loud as each other. I'm making sure that there aren't any sort of distractions and stuff like that happening. And then there are no edits that need to come out. So there's no one sworn or no one stopped and started again. The second time you're then listening to the content. So you're making sure that, as I said, everything adds something and if it doesn't, does it need to be in?

(18:12):
And if it doesn't, it's coming out. So that's the second edit. And then the third edit is just a bit of polish really. So it's just looking at the timing going, okay, is this podcast too long or is it about right for runtime? Is there anything else that I think I could take out? And then in that third sweep, that tends to be when we pick the clips that we use for any billboard that we might run at the start. So yes, three times.

Kiran Kapur, Host (18:36):
Gosh, I had not realised you poor thing. Okay. So what do you use for editing?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (18:45):
Okay. So this is the joy of podcasting is that it really is accessible to anybody and anyone. So once upon a time, radio stations had to be built to exacting standards and a man from the independent broadcasting authority would come around and make sure that your studio walls were thick enough and that your microphones were of sufficient quality and stuff like that. And this has been the great leveller. So it's a bit like YouTube for audio. Anyone can podcast. The software that I use started out as being called Cool Edit. It then was bought by Adobe, who everyone knows. And so the Adobe Creative Cloud is a brilliant kind of tranche of software where you can edit audio and video and stuff like that. It's not the cheapest. You can find software online for free, which will edit audio perfectly well in a kind of linear format.

(19:38):
So you can edit a kind of 30, 35 minute piece down to 20 minutes. And so yeah, it's really quite cheap and easy. But my recommendation if you're starting out is to look at something like Adobe, which is fairly industry standard across radio and podcasts.

Kiran Kapur, Host (19:58):
For actual recording, because we use IPDTL.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (20:02):
So there are loads of different ways that you can connect to other contributors if you are keeping them in their own home or they're at their place of work or stuff like that. So as you say, we use a piece of software called IPDTL, which I really like because you can record four contributors at once and you can record them all onto different tracks. So if you are editing it in Adobe, you are on one track, Kiran, your first guest is on another track and it's much easier to edit that way. There are other ones that you can use, which is Clean Feed. That's a really good one, which I think is actually reasonably free to use if you're just doing a one-on-one interview. I think that is free. Although if you want to do slightly more complex things, you need to pay a small amount, but don't write off things like MS Teams, like Zoom, and like other kind of apps like that, that you already have on your machine.

(20:58):
Skype is another good one as well, like Skype I think actually comes installed with most Windows machines now. So when you're talking to a guest, it's like, "Okay, so what sort of computer do you use? Are you happy with using anything?" I would listen to what they say. And if they say, "You know what? I'm really happy using MS Teams," then perhaps do that. If it's someone who you don't know, sometimes seeing them on a camera at the same time actually helps the chemistry and helps that rapport so that you get a better interview. So there is an argument for using things like MS Teams and Zoom. As a broadcaster, we prefer to have slightly better audio than those things offer, although Zoom has improved the audio offering in the last few months. So that's why we just decided to use IPDTL for this project.

Kiran Kapur, Host (21:44):
Yes. And there's a lovely BBC story you told me about the beginning of COVID, where they had to keep explaining they were being COVID secure.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (21:51):
So yeah, this was the joy of IPDTL and CleanFeed, two particular pieces of software that the broadcast industry jumped on back in March of last year around COVID. And the truth is it sounds so good. I mean, we could quite easily listening to this be in the same room, but I think we're about 30 miles apart. And BBC Radio Four were getting complaints on a daily basis that it was completely inappropriate for them to have two of their news presenters of the Today programme in the same studio wherein actually they had one in one cubicle, they had one at home and a news reader would have been in a different studio. So it sounded so good that they actually had to start saying on air, "Don't worry, we're in different places," or you would have Justin Webb, for example, saying, "And I'm Justin Webb at home." And just to make it really clear to listeners that they weren't in the same place because that's how good it sounded.

Kiran Kapur, Host (22:47):
Distributing a podcast now, we are out on iTunes and Stitcher and smart radio, and I always forget one. So where do you distribute your podcasts?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (23:00):
So it comes down to a lesson that radio has had to learn that you just have to be wherever your audience is. So wherever people get their radio programmes, you need to have your radio programme. So if people listen on FM and on DAB and on their smart speaker when they're waking up in the morning, then your radio stage needs to be on FM. It needs to be on DAB and it needs to be on a smart speaker. And it's the same for podcasts. It needs to be wherever people get their podcasts. Now, I joked about it at the start. Nobody has a flipping iPod anymore, so the name podcast is a bit daft. But if you think about iTunes, people give that a lot of gravitas, but it's something like only 20% of people using an Apple iPhone. So yeah, you need to be on iTunes, but we know that iTunes and Apple podcasts don't work on an Android device.

(23:48):
So you need to be where most people get their podcasts on Android. So you need to make sure that you're on stuff like Stitcher and on the Android podcast service. We know a lot of people listen on smart speakers. We know a lot of people listen on their laptops as well. So the best thing to do is to upload your audio to something that will distribute it to all of those places on your behalf. And that's why we use something. We have no affiliation with them whatsoever. We use a company called Podbean who do everything for us. They don't only just give us a website where we can host our audio and give us the space and stuff like that to actually put the audio, but it then pushes it out to all of these devices so that people get the audio as and when we release new stuff.

Kiran Kapur, Host (24:33):
Thank you. This has been great. It's lovely interviewing the editor. It's horrible. Are there any other hints and tips you'd give somebody?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (24:43):
Let me think. Prepare tight, perform loose. Okay? So you will think as a podcaster, "Oh, people like it really natural and stuff like that, so I'm not going to prepare." No, no, no, no, no, no. People like a nice loose performance, but they don't like a loose show, okay? So prepare tight, perform loose. Make sure you know what you're doing before you start. And that might just be bullet points, doesn't have to be a script. Sometimes scripts can be a really good idea because you're really natural at delivering them, and sometimes you can end up being very wooden and not human. So prepare, tight, perform loose.

Kiran Kapur, Host (25:23):
Daniel, that was fabulous. If anyone wants to hear you live on radio, where would they find you?

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (25:30):
I would encourage them not to bother, but I work for Star Radio. We broadcast all across Cambridge here on FM and on DAB. And if you want to listen on your smart speaker, if you enable Star Radio, that is our Alexa skill and you can listen to us in HD on there.

Kiran Kapur, Host (25:48):
Fabulous. Daniel, thank you very much indeed. No worries. And keep on doing the editing, please.

Daniel Fox, Sound Editor (25:53):
I'm looking forward to editing this one, taking all of me out. Thank you.

Announcer (25:59):
The Cambridge Marketing Podcast from Cambridge Marketing College, training marketing and PR professionals across the globe.

Kiran Kapur, Host (26:07):
Please don't forget to like and subscribe to us. We're available from all the places you would expect to get a podcast. And in the next couple of weeks, we're going to be talking to the Chartered Institute of Marketing about what they do and why you might want to become a member, and we're going to look at a fascinating world of estate agent marketing and how that's changed radically over the last few years. Catch you later.