Voiceover (00:01):
As we start a new year on the Cambridge Marketing Podcast this week, we look at the world of careers.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (00:07):
We do a lot of work with people of all ages to help them know themselves, consider their options, and get the support they need to move into a good job. And a good job is a completely subjective term. It means what's right for you.

Voiceover (00:23):
You are listening to the Cambridge Marketing podcast from Cambridge Marketing College.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (00:27):
Hello and welcome. This week we are in the area of careers, particularly starting careers and I'm delighted to welcome Anne Bailey, who is co-founder and CEO of Form The Future. Form The Future is a not-for-profit careers and employment company. And welcome, lovely to have you on the show. Could you explain Form the Future's mission?

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (00:50):
Sure. And first of all, thank you for having me. Form the Future is really about helping young people navigate their next steps, whether that be into further education and training or into employment. We want to see everyone find and secure a good job, not just their first job, but basically to have developed career management skills that will serve them for life.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (01:18):
And career management is so important, isn't it? Because gone are the days when you went into a career and you stayed in it.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (01:26):
Absolutely. And really this the whole area of how the world of work is changing, the future of work, the opportunities that are available to people, that's what drives us. That's why we think what we do is so important because in the old days, yes, you could have essentially signed up for a job at 16, 18 or 22 and stuck with it for the rest of your working life. Those days have gone, our working world changes rapidly. Technology is changing the ways we work and no one should feel stuck. You need to be constantly horizon scanning, thinking about where your skills are, where they need to be and what opportunities you want to pursue.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (02:17):
You say young people, so what sort of age range do you normally deal with?

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (02:21):
So we actually set this work up originally to go into schools in order to inspire young people about their future career options. So that might mean helping them make more informed decisions around which GCSEs to pursue. That's their sort of first set of choices they get to make. Then thinking about what to do after GCSEs. So should they go down the A level route or other vocational qualifications or can they go into employment perhaps through an apprenticeship? But if you are going to go down a university route that isn't an outcome in itself, that is still a stepping stone to longer term choices and decisions that you're going to need to make. So we wanted to make sure that young people as they progress through education, have opportunities to get information, experiences, insights and support so that they can feel confident about their decision making throughout that journey.

(03:25):
We do also work with adults. We work with people who've left school and still need that support to think through their next steps. We work with a lot of adults in job centres who may have lost their jobs or moved to this country and are trying to see how their qualifications that they've acquired elsewhere can help them slot in. So we do a lot of work with people of all ages to help them know themselves, consider their options and get the support they need to move into a good job. And a good job is a completely subjective term. It means what's right for you.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (04:07):
I think the biggest problem people have is where do they start with this? So what do you need to do to even think about planning out a career or where do you tell people to start?

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (04:19):
Yeah. Well, we actually like to start with the self-awareness piece. Really knowing yourself, the worst thing you can do is try to choose a job that's going to be right for somebody else. You are the one who's going to do it. The work you do takes up a huge amount of your life. So it's really important that you know yourself and what's important to you. So we would often talk about that as being values and your students who will all be knowing about brand values can actually deploy that for themselves. What are your brand values? What matters to you? What are your motivators? What drives you? Is it more important to be saving the world or making a lot of money? Sometimes you can do both, but sometimes you have to choose, do you want to be in a collaborative environment or are you a deep thinker, an innovator, someone who needs to be in a darkened room doing your great work? All of these things, all of these factors are available to people, but different roles, different environments and different companies will present those opportunities in different ways. So really starting to have your list of what's important to you, where you think you will do your best work and where you want to go to whatever extent that might mean in terms of a career is a journey and the first job or the next job isn't going to be the last job. It's probably a stepping stone to something else in the,

Kiran Kapur (Host) (05:58):
We often tell people to self-assess, I'd never know what you're supposed to do to do that. I can sit and sort of stare into space and try and reflect, but I never really know what I'm supposed to do.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (06:11):
I mean, I always find frameworks help. So just the really simple one that we would use every time we debrief an activity, we've done what went well, even better if, what will I do next time? You can use that same approach to reflecting on your own work. I actually use a daily tracker, a daily, I have a daily planner. It's from a guy called Cal Newport who I follow and essentially I set out my day on one column and then I do my record, my actuals in the other. What did I plan to do? What did I actually do? And then my reflection, what went well, what did I learn and what will I do differently tomorrow? That practise of self-reflecting on a daily level, on a quarterly basis, on an annual level, you can apply the exact same approach to reviewing your levels of personal satisfaction.

(07:11):
Am I making the progress I want to be making towards the goals that I think I have? Now, of course, if you don't have clearly defined goals, that's okay. As long as you're a reflective learner, you can be learning from every encounter, every experience, every job that you do, you'll be learning a bit more about things that you like and that you do well. You'll be learning about where you felt you were stretched and challenged in a positive way and where you went beyond that stretch zone into a space that wasn't right for you. And you just learning these are the situations where I can really grow and thrive and these are the situations I need to be careful about because it's not playing to my strengths. And that's okay.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (07:58):
That's really interesting. I have to say the idea of doing a daily what I plan to do and what I actually did absolutely terrifies me.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (08:05):
Well, I mean I only do this because I need it. This didn't come because I was perfect at sticking to my plans. I need these frameworks, I need these tools, and I need the scaffolding to keep me on track. I know my weaknesses as well as my strengths.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (08:23):
I think the other thing that always intrigues me about goals and reflections is it's very easy to be looking at your day-to-day. And as I said, your day-to-day idea already terrifies me, but then it's very easy to lose the longer term. So how do you balance that, keeping the micro going and somebody coming to you that could be, I've got to study for my GCSEs versus I've also got to think about what I want to do next.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (08:48):
Yeah, I mean that is so difficult. We are always most preoccupied with the urgent, aren't we? The thing that's right in front of our noses. And so part of this daily planner also has a weekly reflection period, which I do on a Friday afternoon from four 30 to five ideally. And then you should be doing it also monthly, quarterly, annually, and scheduling that time. But if you think about the person who's thinking, I've got to study for my GCSEs, I don't have time and space or bandwidth to even be thinking about what I want to do next. I guess my advice to that person is make the time. And that doesn't mean being disciplined, being rigorous about, but take the time to go for a walk, go for a chat with somebody who you like and who inspires you. Find the opportunity to reach out and ask questions of others except that you don't have any of the answers and get curious about what's going on out there.

(09:48):
I really think there is. I worry about these students who want to study 22 hours a day because we know our brains can't take all that information in. The best advice is always build in breaks into your study schedule. You need that time to digest it, reflect on it, consolidate it, and I would say taking time out from the sort of here and now to give yourself time to explore your future is a way of also consolidating where you are now and building stronger foundations for that future. So it really is important to give yourself time and space just to be brave to think ahead, not in a stressful anxiety provoking way, but hopefully in an exciting, getting curious about those possibilities way.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (10:40):
Okay. What sort of mistakes do you see people making? You've already said we've, particularly if you're trying to be good and you convince yourself that I'm going to reach my goals by working harder and harder and harder, and therefore I'm going to keep studying. What other mistakes do you see people making when choosing a career?

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (10:59):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I would reiterate the point I think said that a good job is a good job for you. This is a very personal thing. You need to be clear about you. And that means one of the mistakes that people make is they let people make those decisions for them. So that could be a parent who has a strong sense of what they think their child could or should be doing. That could be a teacher who seems to have your best interest at heart, but maybe blinkered and apologies for saying this to an educator, but may have limitations on their understanding of what those opportunities are. I get really concerned about how some of the preconceived ideas about who can do what jobs, how influential those can be, people like us don't work in that role. This is a girl's job, that's a boy's job, all of these limiting

Kiran Kapur (Host) (11:57):
Beliefs. Do you still hear that?

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (12:00):
I do. I mean, I will just give you a small example of once I was asked by a school to try to find some work experience placements for their students, and I said, so what are they interested in? Just hoping to hear a whole variety of places their students would like to go and explore. And they said, well, the girls want to be hairdressers and the boys want to be mechanics. And I did say to them, I'd be much more interested if you'd told me that the other way around.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (12:29):
Yes,

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (12:31):
Because I think that's lazy thinking. I think that comes from a place of really not finding out what those girls are really interested or what those boys really are interested and allowing people to sort of stay in their lane in these pre-ordained prescribed roles. Sometimes gender defined, sometimes class defined. That really bothers me. I want, and our mission as an organisation is to expose all young people to as many different routes as possible, different careers, different roles and different pathways to get there. So whether that means following the academic route through university and getting a degree or through a vocational or employment route like an apprenticeship, we want to make sure young people understand as many of the opportunities available to them as possible.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (13:28):
Is the main mistake you see is self-limiting beliefs or other people's limiting beliefs?

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (13:33):
I think it can be a combination of both. I mean they clearly go together and it's really hard if you're growing up in a family where they say, there are only three acceptable careers and this can be the case to actually break free from that, that takes real courage to be able to say, but do you know what? I want to go to art school. I don't want to be trained to be a lawyer or an accountant or I want to start my own business. A lot of parents can be very nervous about children deciding to step out into an entrepreneurial field. They want the security of an employer and a regular paycheck, but we really want young people to think about what drives them, where can they grow, where will they succeed, what lines up with their values? We spend too much of our life at work to be doing a job just because it makes somebody else happy.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (14:40):
That's a very good point. So having sort of gone through the self-reflection and decided to try, do you have some sort of tips for actually applying for your first job? Because it always worries me when I hear people, particularly young people saying, I've applied for tens of jobs or hundreds of jobs.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (14:59):
So I mean, my biggest tip would be try to apply for a job that's not even been advertised, and that might sound that sound counterintuitive, but essentially the best way to get a job is to persuade someone that they need you and really apply your marketing skills to this. Think about the segment your audiences and think about who you might be targeting. What are the companies or the people or the industries that you're most interested in? Do your research, see what's out there and try to have as many conversations as you can. So, so much about getting hired is connecting with somebody and being the person that they believe they would enjoy working with and who can bring something that they need. So essentially you need to think about what problem are you solving for that person and reach out and introduce what you could do.

(16:06):
So my first job, I'll give you an example. I got my first job because I went on a summer training programme and there was a whole series of speakers and one of the speakers was so inspirational to me that I wrote to him afterwards and I just said, I need to work for you. I was so inspired by what you said, it got me thinking about this and this is what I want to do. And I wrote to him, his PA pulled the letter out because it was a good letter. It was well-written and was persuasive. She showed it to him and said, I think you probably want to meet this woman, don't you? And thank God for her because he did meet me. He didn't have a job, but we met, we formed a relationship and he said, I will find you a job.

(17:01):
In fact, I even said to him, introducing some scarcity, he said, come back to me in September. This was when my final year of university when you've graduated and we'll see what we can do. And I said, no, no, John, I can't do that because if you don't offer me a job today, I'm going to go back and have to apply for other jobs. So he said, okay, I'm committing to give you a job. We'll work out what it is in September when you come. So that's the way to do it is to find someone you want to work for and then sell yourself to them. Obviously not everyone can do that all the time, but try it. Try it.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (17:44):
I have to say, I think if I was listening back thinking that back when I was starting out, I would never have had the guts to do it. So how do you help people who are perhaps a bit shy, a bit unsure, not research now going, I couldn't do that in a million years.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (18:03):
Yeah, I mean you're right. I mean, I will tell you, you might not believe this now hearing me do a podcast, but I was incredibly shy growing up. I couldn't open my mouth in school because I would blush so bad and I would, tears would form my throat, would close up really, really seriously shy. The secret to overcoming that is to just do it, feel the fear and do it anyway, realise what have I got to lose? But there's also a way that we at form the future start to build people up to the point where they have the confidence to do that. And that means starting the idea of networking from the get go. So we start in primary schools by exposing children to people working in different jobs so that they get into the, so it's not a novelty, it becomes normal to talk to people, ask them what they do, say, tell me about a good day at work.

(19:02):
Tell me about what can go wrong. Start getting curious in conversation with people about their work and then you can take that to any encounter. When you meet someone in a pub, what do you do? Oh, what does that mean? Tell me a bit more about that. Just get curious. I often say we want people to be like the David Attenborough of careers going out into the world, particularly when they go on work experience or placements and just observe what they're doing in the workplace, who talks to whom, how do they make decisions, how do they spend their day? And the more you can just really start learning, exploring, talking to people, building your network, the network is so important. And a network can come from anywhere. It can be your friends' parents, it can be your classmates' sister, it can be anyone. But just keep asking, who do you know who does this? I'd love to have a chat with them. That's all it takes.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (20:10):
You make it sound very easy. So you suggest that the best way to get a job is by is to some extent networking that presupposes that you can network into an area that you want to go into. What happens if you can't network? Are there other things you'd suggest?

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (20:31):
Well, I mean clearly the basics of a really good application, and that means don't just spray and pray. I think don't apply to hundreds and just hope someone will pick up an interest. Really be targeted. This is about going out and again, looking for opportunities that really resonate with you, that align with your interests and your values and then do your research on that company. And I mean they can be, I've talked to people and perhaps this is at a very senior level who will spend probably two to three weeks working on a job application, really doing their research, really thinking about the case they're going to make about why they are the person who would do this job best. It is a massive commitment of time, but it's targeted and the results can be better than just jumping into the mix and hoping that somehow another computer is going to choose you.

(21:40):
So I would say it is about research, it's about personalization, it's about making the effort to try to really connect and in your application. But I also, one tip is always follow up. Always contact someone and just say either ask for an information interview before you apply. I'm considering applying and I just want to check whether my skills and experience would be relevant for the job. See if you can get that. It just puts you on their radar. It means that they look out for your CV and it gets that extra bit of attention. So precontact apply and then follow up. And some say, just making sure you've got it. We'd love to hear when you're going to be making a decision. I'd like to put some time aside for the interview. I mean presumptive close. Really assume that they will want you if you are right and if you are right.

(22:39):
So there is one thing I wanted to mention, which is that too often we look at a job description and we see a long list of things and we think, Ooh, I can't do that. I can't do that one thing. I can do everything else but not that one thing and then you think I won't apply. And that's apparently something that women have a tendency to do more so than men. And it's really important to not let that one thing get in the way. If you feel confident that you can do quite a few of those things within your comfort zone, that there are a few things in there that are in your stretch zone and perhaps there's even something that would take you beyond that stretch zone, go for it. You need a balance. You don't want to be stuck just doing things you've only ever done. You want to have that healthy challenge where you're going to be growing and developing in the role. And you can learn, you can say to them, I've never done this before. I've never done a podcast before, but I'd love to learn and I've identified a training course that might me get the skills to do it. Just take charge of it and don't let that put you off.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (23:52):
I think that's a very solid device. It's very easy to go in, go, oh, but I can't, instead of going yes, but I can. So we've talked a lot about from the young person's perspective, what about other people? So I have no huge surprise that you and I are not 16 anymore and I don't think either of us are starting out on our careers. So how can we help as an employer, as a parent, as a friend, how can we actually help somebody? It really is tough at the beginning.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (24:17):
Oh yeah. I mean I would definitely say you want to be paying it forward the whole time. You want to be opening doors to young people coming through. I do a lot of information interviews. People will just reach out and say, I want to learn a bit more about what you do. I'd love to hear your tips and advice and can you introduce me to anybody? We all have people in our networks that we can introduce people to and I would always encourage people to try to do that. It costs you nothing and actually it can come back round where someone may end up introducing someone to you that you really need in your business. I think giving time over to work placements, I've had people who come to do job shadowing. I've had people changing careers who've wanted to spend a week in our business just to learn a little bit more about how the nonprofit sector works and how that would compare to the retail environment.

(25:13):
For example, sometimes people who've been off work for a while with say family commitments, caring commitments, they need to get their confidence back up and just give them a chance to come and shadow you take part, perhaps take a very part-time job just to start to get something on the cv. Reconnect with skills. I remember one of my colleagues, and she's actually now been with us for a very long time, but when she came to us, she'd had eight years off raising four children. And I would say her confidence had taken a bit of a hit, particularly with regard to some of the specifics of the industry she'd worked in previously, which was pr. And she actually didn't want to go straight in at the level she had been in before. She wanted to take a step back. And actually that's a really good thing to do sometimes we often think careers isn't a ladder, it's a climbing wall. Sometimes you go sideways, sometimes you have to go down in order to go ahead eventually. But she also realised that although she had missed out on the whole emergence of social media, someone said to her a tweet is just a press release and 140 characters.

(26:33):
So we're always adapting, aren't we? And I guess I really do encourage people to be brave and take chances and realise that people are there to support you. No one wants to see you fail.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (26:48):
Yes, and I think it's also one can push buttons of we all remember our first interview because for all of us, it's something that it's ingrained on our brains. We all remember messing up at work. Some of us still wake up in the middle of the night going, I did it not that long ago thinking, my God, that press release go out. It is 20 years ago. So I think you can connect to people on a very human level going, I just need some help. I need a little bit of advice or whatever.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (27:17):
Yes, I mean there's a great saying, isn't there, that people, the best way to get someone to take and pay attention is to ask for their help. Can I just ask a favour? Apparently we are wired to want to respond positively to that. And so this is a classic example and I worry sometimes that too many people think they're supposed to have all the answers, that they're supposed to be experts in this, that they should just navigate their way through single-handedly. It's too difficult. It's really difficult at the moment to get a job and first of all, don't be disheartened if you are applying for jobs and getting no answer or getting pushback. Technology has actually exploded the numbers of people who are applying for jobs now and it's made it harder on the recruiter but also harder on the candidates. And that's why I am being a little bit maverick and saying, try to buck the system and do it your own way. If you can try to find people, contact them, even if they haven't. Ideally, if they haven't advertised a job yet, there may well be a need they've got that you are the solution for, and that is also just a really good important point to remember what can you do for them. Whilst of course we're all thinking, what can that job do for me? How we communicate this to our potential customer is what can I do for you? That's what they want to know. What can you bring?

Kiran Kapur (Host) (28:55):
Yes, I think that's really important. I had somebody who came to me for a first interview and it was going quite well and immediately they started to negotiate their working hours and their working days and would we be prepared to do this? And I was like, hang on a second.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (29:08):
Exactly, exactly. Save that for once that you have decided you want to buy them, then you can negotiate the fine tune. I mean obviously if it's so significant such as I have a disabled child and I'm the only person who can be available, so I can only work 25 hours a week, I just need you to know that right now. I think that is clearly communicating something that's important. If you're getting down into trying to negotiate an extra days of holiday that's going to be sending the wrong signal, that's going to be suggesting you're thinking more about not working and than working. And ultimately as employers, we want to see people who really want to work for us and want to work because that's what we're looking for.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (29:56):
Yes, it is a contract for a reason. We supply the labour, the employer supplies the money, but the two do have to come together. And Bailey, co-founder and CEO of form the future, thank you so much for your time. That was really, really informative. Lots of tips that we often don't think about, about networking our way into a job being very calm, finding the confidence to give it a go, and as you say, realising that nothing dreadful will happen if it doesn't work out.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (30:24):
Absolutely. Well, I just wish everyone the best of luck with whatever they're pursuing and come to our website and check us out if there's anything that we can help you with. We would love to.

Kiran Kapur (Host) (30:36):
Fantastic. Thank you very much indeed.

Anne Bailey (Form the Future) (30:38):
Thank you.

Voiceover (30:40):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Cambridge Marketing Podcast, and if you go back through our previous episodes, you'll find other programmes that will help with your career path. There's a careers toolkit episode, a recruitment special, and lots of other great advice. To help make 2025 your best yet, just look for the Cambridge Marketing Podcast wherever you usually listen.